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larky
post May 27 2008, 05:03 AM
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QUOTE(sKiLLfrEE @ May 27 2008, 09:31 AM)
Parents make their kids feel that whatever their mom/dad tells them is absolute truth, and unquestionable.

Governments makes their citizens feel that whatever the politicians tell them is absolute truth, and unquestionable.

Science makes the ignoramuses believe that whatever the scientists tell them is absolute truth, and unquestionable.

The achieving society makes  people believe that performance is the ne plus ultra, and unquestionable.
*

yeh but the difference is that these things actually have an ounce truth to them, whereas a lot of these preachers have absolutely no evidence/proof for what they say and yet they spout it as if it was completely unquestionable. and they take advantage of how impressionable kids are... that's the difference

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sKiLLfrEE
post May 27 2008, 07:45 AM
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QUOTE(Larkyboof @ May 27 2008, 10:03 AM)
QUOTE(sKiLLfrEE @ May 27 2008, 09:31 AM)
Parents make their kids feel that whatever their mom/dad tells them is absolute truth, and unquestionable.

Governments makes their citizens feel that whatever the politicians tell them is absolute truth, and unquestionable.

Science makes the ignoramuses believe that whatever the scientists tell them is absolute truth, and unquestionable.

The achieving society makes  people believe that performance is the ne plus ultra, and unquestionable.
*

yeh but the difference is that these things actually have an ounce truth to them, whereas a lot of these preachers have absolutely no evidence/proof for what they say and yet they spout it as if it was completely unquestionable. and they take advantage of how impressionable kids are... that's the difference
*



I dont see that difference tbh. And Im not religious.

You claim that except for religion everything I named has an ounce of truth to it. So Im wondering....

1) Is every religion a complete lie? There is really not a single thing about religion which is true? Really nothing? If so, can you prove it?

2) How much of an "ounce of truth" is nescessary for something to be satisfying?

3) What is "truth"?

4) Did you check really everything you consider to be true for the opposite? Or do you often/sometimes just believe something to be true?

5) Is it nescessary to check everything to be true?

6) Is it possible to check everything to be true?

I could continue this list but Im too lazy. :P





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Orion_Zorn
post May 27 2008, 07:59 AM
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I disagree Skillfree. Scientists don't say that at all. They show how they came to a conclusion, and if evidence is found that contradicts their theory, they revise it and keep searching for new evidence.

If evidence appeared tomorrow completely refuting evolution, scientists (after being sure that the evidence was correct, etc) would say 'ok well how does this fit then? What really happened?' And they would continue searching to find out exactly what happened, etc.

With religion, people ignore new evidence and continue to just believe what they are told.

That is why religion is dangerous. Bush talks to the clergy, and uses religion to control people.

Governments do the same thing yes - and coincidentally they are trying to control people, just like churches are.

Your argument is making something very complex into a simple statement that is imo wrong, sorry. Parents (usually) dont continue to tell their kids to do something EVEN after finding evidence that their original thought or action was wrong.

Schools do push this idea also. In the US schools are controlled and funded by the government, coincidentally. ;) (Public schooling is one of the 10 steps to creating a Communist state on the Communist Manifesto also)

Schools, churches, government, all bad in varying degrees. imo.

This post has been edited by VnX_Zorn: May 27 2008, 09:14 AM

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ravaneli
post May 31 2008, 12:23 AM
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With very few exceptions (buddism?) religions (not religious people) are very intollerant to other religions and especially vs atheists. All, but their followers are condemned to a state of eternal pain.

I used to not care about that, but since I started living in US i became increasingly intolerant towards religion. US people condescend to the Arabs, but they are the same stupid naive religious fanatics. You have no clue how crowded are the churches here, what kind of money they raise and what is their political and social power.

And the masses of people have poor education and poor judgment as a consequence of that. They are vulnerable and defenseless vs religion in general, and I think it is time for government control of religious abuse. It is way out of hand. FInancial abuse, sexual abuse, political abuse-- you name it, religion has done it. I can stand this no more. Organized religion, just like organized crime, must be fought.

One note though, like that guy Bridashy said, I am not against people believeing in whatever they want. It is ORGANIZED RELIGION as a mass control tool that should be restricted by the government.

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bridarshy
post May 31 2008, 04:16 AM
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Rav, you are right to have concerns there with abuse, but I will be the first to tell you government is not the solution to it. How would that help? I think anything they could do would be a. expensive, b. disrespectful to civil liberties, and c. ineffective and inefficient.


As a side note, there are Buddhist sects that have murdered leaders of other Buddhist sects over name calling.

By the way, I would like to hear how exactly you think the government is going to figure out which religions are controlling people and which aren't. If there was ever an attempt at this by the government, it would then be the government controlling us and they would become the ones to fear. I would probably at this point, want to flee the country. Do you want your government to tell you what to believe religion wise? This is like Communism, Fascism.

The solution can only come from individuals. All the religions, many contradict each other and say the rest are all wrong. It is therefore impossible for the government to be controlling the good vs the bad religions. The catholic church didn't actually molest anyone. Individuals did!

This post has been edited by bridarshy: May 31 2008, 06:13 AM

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sKiLLfrEE
post May 31 2008, 04:20 AM
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QUOTE(ravaneli @ May 31 2008, 05:23 AM)
It is ORGANIZED RELIGION as a mass control tool that should be restricted by the government.
*



So:

Organized religion = mass control tool
Government = mass control tool

Im not able to tell which one is more evil. ;)

But yeah, I get your point. I wouldnt want government to restrict organized religion because that would go too far imo but I also despise organized religion....ro at least most of it :)


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ravaneli
post May 31 2008, 08:46 AM
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Ok,

I already hate the government as institution, and the US government in particular. Many people from the latter deserve death penalty for crimes against the humanity.

But love it or hate it, it is the only institution that maintains some kind of control in people's lives.

I never said that government will tell you what to believe. Where have I said such thing? But it should plain shut down churches that preach aggressive religion. Hagee's for example. You can't advise attack on another country, who the hell are you? Actually every word that guy says is wrong and offensive to someone. This is just an example.

You all know that religion has a special status. This is even truer here in US. Imagine saying things like that in any other non-religious club. Do you think that would be tolerated for one second?? Police will be there in the hour, arresting people. But if you are in your church, you can freeely instigate people. Look at the news here. Texas. Huge sect, having sex with teens, not even teens in some cases. Went to trial. NOTHING. Turns out the police was wrong to rescue the kids. Now they are going back for more sex. A man gets out of the church, goes to Walmart, buys a gun and goes to the local abortion clinic and starts shooting. Then we have a huge and long trial because we don't want to offend the catholics. The man was sentenced to prison, but I would also shut down that church and jail the preacher. A man shows on TV and says God told him that if he can't raise 1 000 000$ (for himself) he will take his life. And guess what, heg gets the donations in one night. Why is he allowed on TV with address like that? People selling holy water that cures cancer and what not. On TV. Why is that allowed? What the hell is a charlatan then? Those poor uneducated people, they don't know any better. They are sick and desperate, they will buy it. Don't they deserve defense against that? They still pay taxes..

Too many words, but are you really trying to tell me that religion doesn't have a special status? That one could never do the things he can under the religious umbrella? Do you really never see cases where people NEED DEFENSE? How can you let a reverend tell his people to stop their medicine because God is the only one who can heal them? Why is this a legal thing to say?? How is that not a murder?

No, as much as I hate the government, it is their duty to protect the lower classes from organized religion.

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bridarshy
post May 31 2008, 09:08 AM
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The gov't doesn't "care" about people as you suggest.

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sKiLLfrEE
post May 31 2008, 02:54 PM
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QUOTE(ravaneli @ May 31 2008, 01:46 PM)


But love it or hate it, it is the only institution that maintains some kind of control in people's lives.


Yeah, govs maintain control...but the question is: How much control is needed? Should banning/restricting organized religion belong to the privileges of a government or is this already too much control? Id say so.




QUOTE
I never said that government will tell you what to believe. Where have I said such thing?


You didnt say it explicitely but your suggestion (governmental restrictions on religious gruops) implies it.

QUOTE
But it should plain shut down churches that preach aggressive religion.


I agree that religious organizations which tend to act/preach against the particular constitution of a country dont deserve to be protected by the government. They should be illegalized.





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krags
post May 31 2008, 10:06 PM
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Ravenelli you take some serious liberties when discussing this topic.

From what I read about the Texas FLDS thing, the whole incident was sparked by a phony phone call from a former member. Furthermore, the Texas CPS decided to charge the entire group which if my legal interpretation is correct (and it is) is illegal (thus the subsequent appeal overturned the original decision). If there is a crime, each perp should be indicted and tried individually (as was done with the FLDS leader who is currently behind bars). When this whole thing went down I expected it to be a slam dunk assuming they had that pesky little thing called EVIDENCE. Amazingly, they didn't. They decided that the entire group was guilty and removed 400-something children from families. Now they don't have enough evidence to withstand an appeal? Does anyone see a problem with this type of prosecution?

Also, I find the notion that the gov't should step in and 'protect' the poor uneducated masses from religion laughable. This is the same gov't you say should be facing the death penalty for crimes against humanity? Ah great, George Bush is here to protect me from organized religion! How about a new agency modeled after that gem, TSA?

Keep in mind the worst of religion will be on tv=common sense. The very few times I'm flipping channels and see these morons on tv I am amazed. If people are this stupid (obviously they are) nothing will protect them from finding some other method of victimization (perhaps they'll give in to huffing gasoline fumes for kicks). We've all seen Springer, so we know how low the lowest common denominator is.

There are plenty of good churches that are fairly easy to distinguish when they don't have the feel of somebody trying to sell you new windows for your house.


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larky
post Jun 1 2008, 05:13 AM
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QUOTE(sKiLLfrEE @ May 27 2008, 01:45 PM)
QUOTE(Larkyboof @ May 27 2008, 10:03 AM)
QUOTE(sKiLLfrEE @ May 27 2008, 09:31 AM)
Parents make their kids feel that whatever their mom/dad tells them is absolute truth, and unquestionable.

Governments makes their citizens feel that whatever the politicians tell them is absolute truth, and unquestionable.

Science makes the ignoramuses believe that whatever the scientists tell them is absolute truth, and unquestionable.

The achieving society makes  people believe that performance is the ne plus ultra, and unquestionable.
*

yeh but the difference is that these things actually have an ounce truth to them, whereas a lot of these preachers have absolutely no evidence/proof for what they say and yet they spout it as if it was completely unquestionable. and they take advantage of how impressionable kids are... that's the difference
*



I dont see that difference tbh. And Im not religious.

You claim that except for religion everything I named has an ounce of truth to it. So Im wondering....
*

Most of what parents tell their kids is the truth. Although they still bullpoopie us most of the time, the government tells the truth a lot too. And basically everything that scientists say is backed by some sort of evidence, and everything that they tell us as if it's "unquestionable", is exactly that. Ask a scientist if energy/matter can be created or destroyed, he will make you believe that what he says is unquestionable.

no, religion does not have an ounce of truth to it like all those things you just mentioned. And by truth i mean something that can be backed by a significant amount of evidence. I'm not saying that god verifiably definitely does not exist. I'm not saying that the government is right to say what they say, i'm pointing out the differences.



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