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Can I still go to heaven?
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Cloud_Ex
post Jan 18 2007, 01:01 PM
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QUOTE(plexiq @ Jan 18 2007, 12:48 PM)
QUOTE(ravaneli @ Jan 17 2007, 08:59 PM)
I asked her: "If I do everything a good christian does, have good heart, help everyone, do charity and EVERYTHING, BUT I still don't believe in God, and don't go to church then where do I go - hell or heaven?"


First off, the question is a bit weird. Someone who doesnt believe wont care about some religions heaven/hell. Not believing in god but fearing hell is a pretty inconsistent world view.

Anyway, for most religions the answer is certainly:
He'll not be allowed to enter "heaven". For Christianity it definitely works that way.

Why? Because the bible says so. You need more reasons? Thats not how religions work. They will probably even tell you that you cant enter heaven just because you questioned the holy bible. (But if you go to church next Sunday and donate a bit, god will surely forgive you. Those donations restore gods damaged ego, and everything is fine again.)

But maybe...well, maybe these "rules" are just important to get/keep people in fear. If you assume for a second, that humans came up with Christianity them self - no god involved. To make this new organization "Christianity" work, you would need good arguments for recruiting and binding people.

"You will burn in hell forever if you dont believe in our god" is a great recruiting argument. Nobody wants to spend infinity in a state of pain. Following a few rules to avoid eternal pain is a great deal. Even if you give the whole heaven/hell-concept just a tiny probability of existing, joining Christianity would still be a good deal. Whats ~80yrs of following some rules, compared to eternal heaven/hell? Nothing.

So, all you have to do for successful recruiting is to make people accept that there is at least a chance that heaven/hell exists. Their fear will do the rest of the recruiting work. Somehow, that makes much more sense to me than an almighty god with ego deficits.

Many religious "rules" become a lot more reasonable when you look at them from this pov.
*



Too bad you mension heaven a couple of times, but keep using fear as an argument for people to follow a religion.

In islam it is said that the best worshipers will eventually enter heaven, even the last person (who deserves the heaven least) will be given 10 times the amount of richness of earth. He cant emagine someone being happier than him (even though billions have entered and took place in the higher levels of the paradise before him).

The surface of a whip in paradise is more worth than this entire world. Then when people cant emagine there could be something more beautifull, god himself will apear. Humans will finally be able to see him in his true beauty. That is the best day for them.

So there might be a different reason to follow religion (exept for the fact that it improves your daily life and the feir of hell). Maybe meeting your creator is one of them.

Cu

This post has been edited by Cloud_Ex: Jan 18 2007, 01:02 PM

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plexiq
post Jan 18 2007, 01:48 PM
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It doesnt really make much difference to my argumentation if its the fear to enter hell, or the fear miss the chance to enter heaven.

The idea is the same, catch ppl by making them believe they get "paid off" once they died.

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Cloud_Ex
post Jan 18 2007, 02:06 PM
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QUOTE(plexiq @ Jan 18 2007, 06:48 PM)
It doesnt really make much difference to my argumentation if its the fear to enter hell, or the fear miss the chance to enter heaven.

The idea is the same, catch ppl by making them believe they get "paid off" once they died.
*



Yes man your right telling people to be good, to have morals and faith to reach paradise in the next life. It must be a total scam!! :whistling:

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Tordenskiold
post Jan 18 2007, 02:10 PM
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QUOTE(plexiq @ Jan 18 2007, 02:48 PM)
QUOTE(ravaneli @ Jan 17 2007, 08:59 PM)
I asked her: "If I do everything a good christian does, have good heart, help everyone, do charity and EVERYTHING, BUT I still don't believe in God, and don't go to church then where do I go - hell or heaven?"


First off, the question is a bit weird. Someone who doesnt believe wont care about some religions heaven/hell. Not believing in god but fearing hell is a pretty inconsistent world view.

Anyway, for most religions the answer is certainly:
He'll not be allowed to enter "heaven". For Christianity it definitely works that way.

Why? Because the bible says so. You need more reasons? Thats not how religions work. They will probably even tell you that you cant enter heaven just because you questioned the holy bible. (But if you go to church next Sunday and donate a bit, god will surely forgive you. Those donations restore gods damaged ego, and everything is fine again.)

But maybe...well, maybe these "rules" are just important to get/keep people in fear. If you assume for a second, that humans came up with Christianity them self - no god involved. To make this new organization "Christianity" work, you would need good arguments for recruiting and binding people.

"You will burn in hell forever if you dont believe in our god" is a great recruiting argument. Nobody wants to spend infinity in a state of pain. Following a few rules to avoid eternal pain is a great deal. Even if you give the whole heaven/hell-concept just a tiny probability of existing, joining Christianity would still be a good deal. Whats ~80yrs of following some rules, compared to eternal heaven/hell? Nothing.

So, all you have to do for successful recruiting is to make people accept that there is at least a chance that heaven/hell exists. Their fear will do the rest of the recruiting work. Somehow, that makes much more sense to me than an almighty god with ego deficits.

Many religious "rules" become a lot more reasonable when you look at them from this pov.
*




Excellent post :thumbsup:

I came here to write about how all religion is based on fear - and found out you already beat me to it and in a much better way than I could have hoped of.

Let me just say that I mistrust and dislike any form of guidence that is based on fear of consequenses if you fail to follow. That to me, is nothing but a lack of good arguments to persuade people to follow.

We all know somebody who work somewhere, where the management style is based on fear an punishment - and we all know that in the long run it does not work <_<

Once the object to fear is out of sight - everything comes to a hold.


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MeRcY_NeVeR
post Jan 18 2007, 05:23 PM
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Why Fear? I fear god and thats it i fear no mortal man.

Ok let me ask you athesits something, Do u fear breaking the law and the punishment you get?

Like for example you drive under the influence of alchol....you would fear getting caught bec of the rules your breaking right?

To argue that not to follow a faith bec of all its rules and this fear then why dont u REBEL vs RULES placed upon you by humans never mind the rules set by GOD.

Relgion is not goverened by fear, yes there are insights and punishments if u break a rule but arent we as humans surrounded by rules we all know of them what makes relgious rules any different rules then rules palced upon you by a goverment. Makes no sense to me and imo your just looking for 1 other thing to shoot relgion down.



QUOTE
I found a colleague to read the bible at work one time. I asked her something and her answer astonished me and I have been wanting for a while to ask other people if that is true.

I asked her: "If I do everything a good christian does, have good heart, help everyone, do charity and EVERYTHING, BUT I still don't believe in God, and don't go to church then where do I go - hell or heaven?"

She said hell. So no matter what you do, if you don't believe you go to hell?

Comments please. Muslims, want to hear your opinion as well, so just translate this to your religion.


Do u fear that you would go to hell? I feel to behoenst man your not really a FULL athiest you have some doubts the what if feeling. Hold on to them and reserch all the faiths and see what you find.

However as i said in Islam the only thing Allah wont forgive is people not believing in him.


BTW intresting arguement all the atheists bring up if ic antsee him i wont believe. God says it in the Quarn famous teachings about it.

GOD said when i show people mircles the still dont believe. The 1st part of the quarn the 1st few pages talk about this. When Prophet Mosa (PBUH) saved the isreliatesfrom the Egyptions, and opend the Sea to save them. When Prophet Mosa went to recive the commandments e returns 30 days later to find the isrelaies worshipping a COW!!!....even though they seen the mircle they started worshipping a cow. It proves some people are blind and they jsut cant see things.


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plexiq
post Jan 18 2007, 06:40 PM
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QUOTE
To argue that not to follow a faith bec of all its rules and this fear then why dont u REBEL vs RULES placed upon you by humans never mind the rules set by GOD.


Thats not at all what i was arguing. I dont have a problem with rules.

My basic point was, that the rules like "If you dont believe in our god, you will burn in hell.", that many of the "big" religions share, do not really make sense if you assume they come straight from an almighty god.

If someone lives a perfectly fine life, except that he doesnt believe in god, what harm does that do to anyone? Why would this person need to be punished with eternal pain? How can it be "fair" to punish some person who may never even heard about Christianity/Islam/etc with eternal pain if he did nothing wrong, except "not believing"?

If you assume those rules were made by an almighty, forgiving and wise god, that doesnt make much sense to me. However, those rules become perfectly reasonable if we assume they were created by humans.


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ravaneli
post Jan 18 2007, 06:43 PM
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Let's from now on not confuse historical facts with biblical texts, that have in no way received any physical evidence yet. Noone opened no sea. And I googled for hours and as of today there still isn't a single evidence that he existed so if you base your arguments on the bible or quaran, they will not have any argumentative weight. I think it's fair to keep to facts only.

Tell me, Mercy_Never, what do you think about this doctrine:
-- I am God and if you follow my quide I will give you heaven. If you do NOT -- you will just be normal mortals (but will not be reprimanded).

Isn't this much better? It's still rewarding obedience! But leaving you with your choice and not biasing your decision. I don't see why GOd find's that unacceptable.

But now I deviate from my own topic. You still didn't tell me why it is OK to send such a descent man to hell.

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StarGazeR
post Jan 18 2007, 06:44 PM
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QUOTE(ravaneli @ Jan 18 2007, 08:50 AM)
QUOTE(StarGazeR @ Jan 18 2007, 07:21 AM)
QUOTE(ravaneli @ Jan 17 2007, 01:59 PM)
I asked her: "If I do everything a good christian does, have good heart, help everyone, do charity and EVERYTHING, BUT I still don't believe in God, and don't go to church then where do I go - hell or heaven?"
*



Who is this person that does not believe in God, but does everything God asks?
*



StarGazer, I believe you perfectly understood my question when you wrote that and just 'played dumb' since my wording allowed it. Not quite high class but anyway.

I ,for example, do not kill people and do not steal and etc. but I don't refrain from stealing because God says so. And the same way that 'saint' does everything the perfect christian does, only because of his personal moral, and please do not tell me that only religious people have moral.

God is the ultimate Goodness. Doesn't anyone of the believers find it unrighteous to send a saint to hell?
*



I think I ask a perfectly legitimate question. You just suggested that any person who doesn't kill or steal is a saint. I don't agree.

I also don't believe that there is one single person on this earth that lives a perfect life and doesn't believe in God. I know this because there is also not one single person on this earth that lives a perfect life and DOES believe in God.

The difference is that people who believe in God can ask for forgiveness from his creator. An atheist acknowledges no greater being than himself. He puts nothing above his own welfare and that of his own family and friends. That alone rules out sainthood.

Give me an example of an atheist saint. What is it that holds such a man to such high moral standards?

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ravaneli
post Jan 18 2007, 07:07 PM
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I created a hypothetical saint. Not sure if there are any 100% saints but there are many, MANY people that don't believe in God but have devoted their whole life to helping others and are as close to selfless as it is possible. People in Red Cross, doctors in hospitals...

Hey man, my grandfather was not a Saint but a really honorable man that always stood for righteousness, would never take advantage of anybody and would help anyone, even the nasties social garbage on the street. He died on 61 from cancer and if God sent him to hell because he didn't believe I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH GOD.

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[StR]Jordi
post Jan 18 2007, 07:28 PM
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Like someone mentioned before; There is only one answer to ypur question, and that is NO. The bible states that you can't get into heaven without believing... I don't really think God cares if you have a problem with him now or not :P.


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plexiq
post Jan 18 2007, 07:47 PM
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QUOTE(StarGazeR)
The difference is that people who believe in God can ask for forgiveness from his creator. An atheist acknowledges no greater being than himself. He puts nothing above his own welfare and that of his own family and friends. That alone rules out sainthood.

Give me an example of an atheist saint. What is it that holds such a man to such high moral standards?


Right, there are no 2nd chances for atheists, no "forgiving creator" waiting for you. If you screw up, thats it. Isn't that a great reason to think twice before doing things you may regret later?

I dont expect my "soul" to exist after i die. All thats left of me after i die, are the changes i make during my life. I may choose to get a family, so my thoughts and believes will partly live on in my child's and grandchild's.

Others choose to help, and hope their contributions make a difference. Or work hard, so your accomplishments are remembered, etc. But thats the only kind of "eternity" an atheist can hope for. And thats a great motivation for many atheists - imo just as good as (or better than) religious motivation.

This post has been edited by plexiq: Jan 18 2007, 07:49 PM

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KS_Rockstar
post Jan 18 2007, 08:41 PM
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but any supreme being that made it so only people who believed in him (yet chose to make it impossible to prove he existed) could get into heaven but everybody else (regardless of how good their life was) went to hell would be a stupid, mean spirited, evil god.

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sKiLLfrEE
post Jan 18 2007, 08:48 PM
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God the master of meritocracy. Truth or just a functioning concept to goad mankind? Created by man, executed by man, lived by man, abused by man or given by god?

Punishment and reward......are that the alternatives god wants us to base our life on? Fear in this life and reward in the next one?

God as master of class society. The membership in the right religion as key to heaven? Admittance only with ViP pass?

:unsure:

Seriously: What image of heaven/hell do you non-atheists have? WHat happens with muslim/christian/etc after death who either lived his life conform to gods will or not? Does a sinner literally burn in flames? Will an atheist, who always treated everyone nice and helpful but just didnt believe in god, be sent to hell? Is that justice? Is that really an adorable god? Can that be true?


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StarGazeR
post Jan 18 2007, 08:53 PM
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QUOTE(ravaneli @ Jan 18 2007, 06:07 PM)
Hey man, my grandfather was not a Saint but a really honorable man that always stood for righteousness, would never take advantage of anybody and would help anyone, even the nasties social garbage on the street. He died on 61 from cancer and if God sent him to hell because he didn't believe I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH GOD.
*



So, now we arrive at the real issue. I can't relate to a hypothetical saint, but being concerned about the soul of a good human being, this I can relate to.

I will give you the best answer I can, from someone who does believe in God.

Actions are more important then words. Your grandfathers actions will count more than anything he said he believes or didn't believe.

QUOTE
Revelation 20:12(NASB)

" And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds."


Many religious people are misguided. They are not necessarily bad people, they have just chosen to believe what others have told them instead of actually reading the scriptures for themselves.

The truth is, not all rules are carved in stone. Exceptions have been made before.

According to the Gospel of John, the Pharisees, in an attempt to discredit Jesus, brought a woman charged with adultery before him. Then they reminded Jesus that adultery was punishable by stoning under Mosaic law and challenged him to judge the woman so that they might then accuse him of disobeying the law. Jesus thought for a moment and then replied, “He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her.” The people crowded around him were so touched by their own consciences that they departed. When Jesus found himself alone with the woman, he asked her who were her accusers. She replied, “No man, lord.” Jesus then said, “Neither do I condemn thee: go and sin no more.”

Jesus over ruled Mosaic law on this occasion. It seems reasonable to believe that exceptions might have been made before or that some might have been made since.

I can't speak for God. I can only tell you what I know. I know that rules have been bent and exceptions have been made. I have read the bible a few times and this is not the only example of leniency.

Your grandfather is not automatically comdemned to hell, in my opinion. In the end, it will be between him and God.

QUOTE
Others choose to help, and hope their contributions make a difference. Or work hard, so your accomplishments are remembered, etc. But thats the only kind of "eternity" an atheist can hope for. And thats a great motivation for many atheists - imo just as good as (or better than) religious motivation.


Personally I don't think vanity, personal legacy, and fame are "just as good as (or better than) religious motivation"

It is better to do the right thing because it is the right thing rather than for the recognition you will recieve.

The true measure of a man's character is what he does when no one can see him.

QUOTE
Mark 12:38  And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and [love] salutations in the marketplaces,

Mark 12:39  And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts:

Mark 12:40  Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.

Mark 12:41  And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.

Mark 12:42  And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.

Mark 12:43  And he called [unto him] his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:

Mark 12:44  For all [they] did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, [even] all her living.

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ravaneli
post Jan 19 2007, 12:42 AM
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I exchanged some personal messages with StarGazer and despite my initial objections I decided to post this here.

As of today there is still no physical evidence that Jesus existed other than the biblical texts. I googled and googled and found nothing. If any of you knows of undisputable evidence of the existense of Jesus please post it here. Although I think that the world media would have made quite an event from this, if it had been proven already. You would think that such an important person would have made all of his contemporaries write about him. But even the biblical texts start 50 years after his supposed death.



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