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TCs, economy and upgrades argument
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Lord Antares
post Feb 22 2020, 06:21 AM
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Well, I can see how it can be a gamble sometimes. I got destroyed twice in a game for going 2nd tc. The opponent was very aggressive early (norse) and didn't let me boom. Raided any advantage that I got out of my 2nd TC.

But it seems like, when I watch pro games that there's some unwritten agreement that there would be no attacking and both sides just kinda accept that they will go for their own TCs. If that's the meta, I could see someone pick norse and send their ulfs/hersirs out early to destroy any attempt to make a 2nd TC. Imagine how catastrophic it would be if the villagers were caught out like that.

Yet it doesn't seem like people do it so there must be something to it.

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Mor_legendary
post Feb 22 2020, 06:52 AM
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QUOTE(Lord Antares @ Feb 22 2020, 06:21 AM)
Well, I can see how it can be a gamble sometimes. I got destroyed twice in a game for going 2nd tc. The opponent was very aggressive early (norse) and didn't let me boom. Raided any advantage that I got out of my 2nd TC.

But it seems like, when I watch pro games that there's some unwritten agreement that there would be no attacking and both sides just kinda accept that they will go for their own TCs. If that's the meta, I could see someone pick norse and send their ulfs/hersirs out early to destroy any attempt to make a 2nd TC. Imagine how catastrophic it would be if the villagers were caught out like that.

Yet it doesn't seem like people do it so there must be something to it.
*


well that was kinda funny, there is no real agreement its just both side think they cant stop other side tc, or just play semi aotumatics.
your idea is right.

when i played vs kimo me oranos vs his ra on watering hole, since i knew he will pick his second tc i kept there the orcales.valor them and sent promothean and other army+shockwave, it made enough damage 111. i think even one time i manage to completly stop it. but even in times i didnt i still kiled few vills and forced him waste his ss


btw if you have pb to pick tc just make some rmy before like 2 heroes or just up earlyer. although back tc is most of time no problem to pick up. the thing is you need be skilled for protect your base and make fast army, for this need good macro. its ofc harder than just spam units non stop

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Lord Antares
post Feb 22 2020, 08:43 AM
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QUOTE(Sloop90 @ Feb 22 2020, 01:52 PM)
QUOTE(Lord Antares @ Feb 22 2020, 06:21 AM)
Well, I can see how it can be a gamble sometimes. I got destroyed twice in a game for going 2nd tc. The opponent was very aggressive early (norse) and didn't let me boom. Raided any advantage that I got out of my 2nd TC.

But it seems like, when I watch pro games that there's some unwritten agreement that there would be no attacking and both sides just kinda accept that they will go for their own TCs. If that's the meta, I could see someone pick norse and send their ulfs/hersirs out early to destroy any attempt to make a 2nd TC. Imagine how catastrophic it would be if the villagers were caught out like that.

Yet it doesn't seem like people do it so there must be something to it.
*


well that was kinda funny, there is no real agreement its just both side think they cant stop other side tc, or just play semi aotumatics.
your idea is right.

when i played vs kimo me oranos vs his ra on watering hole, since i knew he will pick his second tc i kept there the orcales.valor them and sent promothean and other army+shockwave, it made enough damage 111. i think even one time i manage to completly stop it. but even in times i didnt i still kiled few vills and forced him waste his ss


btw if you have pb to pick tc just make some rmy before like 2 heroes or just up earlyer. although back tc is most of time no problem to pick up. the thing is you need be skilled for protect your base and make fast army, for this need good macro. its ofc harder than just spam units non stop
*



That's great. I am trying to find a Ra 2 tc build order. There is this by the mista: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-z1gCBQrO0&t=264s

but it only shows low hunt maps with husbandry. I don't know how Poseidon 2nd TC compares to Ra in general, but I got very mixed results with Poseidon. When I say mixed results, I mean I get demolished when my opponent is aggressive and it turns out great when he is passive.

If course, it's mostly because I'm a noob, not because the idea doesn't work.

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OmegaXBlast
post Feb 23 2020, 05:01 AM
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early ups pretty useless, I get my handaxe/pickaxe at 7-8mins.
of course you can get them if you advance late, 5mins+.
but you should try to advance 4:30 as any god on most maps and matchups with a few exceptions.

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Mor_legendary
post Feb 23 2020, 06:29 AM
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QUOTE(OmegaXBlast @ Feb 23 2020, 05:01 AM)
early ups pretty useless, I get my handaxe/pickaxe at 7-8mins.
of course you can get them  if you advance late, 5mins+.
but you should try to advance 4:30 as any god on most maps and matchups with a few exceptions.
*


they are not usless,they add value to your economy and ofc pay more in the long run.
its much better to take pickaxe instead of have 170 extra rss-probably wood in most of the game

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Mirez
post Feb 24 2020, 09:12 AM
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QUOTE(Lord Antares @ Feb 22 2020, 12:21 PM)
Well, I can see how it can be a gamble sometimes. I got destroyed twice in a game for going 2nd tc. The opponent was very aggressive early (norse) and didn't let me boom. Raided any advantage that I got out of my 2nd TC.

But it seems like, when I watch pro games that there's some unwritten agreement that there would be no attacking and both sides just kinda accept that they will go for their own TCs. If that's the meta, I could see someone pick norse and send their ulfs/hersirs out early to destroy any attempt to make a 2nd TC. Imagine how catastrophic it would be if the villagers were caught out like that.

Yet it doesn't seem like people do it so there must be something to it.
*


Because it's incredible difficult to actually punish a 2nd tc without going blindly all-in. if you try to 1tc raid you'll need kill a significant amount of villagers otherwise he'll still outboom you. Especially if the 2nd tc secures hunt/gold. And not many civs can comfortably take out a tc in the classical age.

QUOTE(Sloop90 @ Feb 23 2020, 12:29 PM)
QUOTE(OmegaXBlast @ Feb 23 2020, 05:01 AM)
early ups pretty useless, I get my handaxe/pickaxe at 7-8mins.
of course you can get themĀ  if you advance late, 5mins+.
but you should try to advance 4:30 as any god on most maps and matchups with a few exceptions.
*


they are not usless,they add value to your economy and ofc pay more in the long run.
its much better to take pickaxe instead of have 170 extra rss-probably wood in most of the game
*


He's not arguing eco ups are useless, he's arguing early eco ups are useless. If you have only 4 villagers on wood a 10% boost equals 0,4 villagers for 170 resources (it a bit more complicted obviously but bear with me). If you create an additional villager it's a 25% boost instead for 50 food. Which is why an early 2nd tc is much better than early economy upgrades.

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Lord Antares
post Feb 24 2020, 09:39 AM
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QUOTE(Mirez @ Feb 24 2020, 04:12 PM)
He's not arguing eco ups are useless, he's arguing early eco ups are useless. If you have only 4 villagers on wood a 10% boost equals 0,4 villagers for 170 resources (it a bit more complicted obviously but bear with me). If you create an additional villager it's a 25% boost instead for 50 food. Which is why an early 2nd tc is much better than early economy upgrades.
*



Yes, you summesd up my thoughts exactly. That's why I made the thread and it's why I should learn all the fast tc builds.

And you're right, I give too much consideration to a few villagers lost in raiding, but the 2nd tc more than makes up for it.

This post has been edited by Lord Antares: Feb 24 2020, 09:59 AM

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Lord Antares
post Mar 1 2020, 05:30 AM
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QUOTE(BoIt @ Feb 20 2020, 05:56 AM)
On the other hand, norse's fast second TC is a bit slower


How come? I would have thought that Odin would have the fastest possible 2nd TC and in general, very strong economy.

He has great hunt combined with the fact that his villagers gather hunt the fastest. He also has dwarves to gather that gold faster AND his army builds the TC which means no idle villie time. Seems ideal.

Is it just because he needs to get those ulfsarks/hersirs out as building with 1 or 2 of them would be really slow? Or is it something else?

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Harmsway
post Mar 1 2020, 06:39 AM
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QUOTE(Lord Antares @ Feb 20 2020, 05:13 AM)
Take Flood of the Nile for example. It costs like 200 gold and 5 favor (someone correct me if I'm wrong). It gives you 45 food per minute, so in terms of gold, it pays off after 4+ minutes. But that's not quite right. You need 50 food, 50 gold for monument and you have to somehow calculate favor and the time the villie is wasting while building the monument. So let's say it pays itself off in 6 minutes (it actually might be more because villagers are so economical and it builds relatively slowly but let's say 6 mins).

Flood of The Nile costs 135 G and 5 favor. You can see it as an "expensive villager" but there are no other ways to get an extra vill out that early, and you will trade some gold to food when the latter is more valuable early on. If you get Flood of The Nile as early as possible you will have 135 extra food at 6:30, which is - conveniently - the food cost on Shaft Mine.

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Mor_legendary
post Mar 1 2020, 06:45 AM
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QUOTE(Lord Antares @ Mar 1 2020, 05:30 AM)
QUOTE(BoIt @ Feb 20 2020, 05:56 AM)
On the other hand, norse's fast second TC is a bit slower


How come? I would have thought that Odin would have the fastest possible 2nd TC and in general, very strong economy.

He has great hunt combined with the fact that his villagers gather hunt the fastest. He also has dwarves to gather that gold faster AND his army builds the TC which means no idle villie time. Seems ideal.

Is it just because he needs to get those ulfsarks/hersirs out as building with 1 or 2 of them would be really slow? Or is it something else?
*


norse build tc with army 11, basecly in boom war they have big adventage since they dont need 5\6 vill walk to the tc and build it for like 50 seconds. and ofc they can start pick tc arround 4:30 without any probelm with 2 hersirs 2 ulfsrarks, in fact thor can up 4:02 and pick tc but he wont have alot of units, and anyway need good macro for this.

but maybe bolt meant to say that norse units build it slower or they can build abit later cause they need some army for defend while other build the tc.

norse have good economy especily thor and odin but think about possiedon able to up 4:05 and instantly pick tc with 5 vills while thor needs to make hersirs. hersir is 120 rss. so for 2 hersirs you need 240 rss that god like possy dont need to spend. and still then its 2 hersirs build vs 5\6 vills

This post has been edited by Sloop90: Mar 1 2020, 06:49 AM

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Lord Antares
post Mar 1 2020, 02:08 PM
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QUOTE(Sloop90 @ Mar 1 2020, 01:45 PM)
but think about possiedon able to up 4:05 and instantly pick tc with 5 vills while thor needs to make hersirs


Yeah I'm playing possy a bit. He's fun. But what do I do to get a 4:05 TC build?

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Hagrit
post Mar 1 2020, 03:08 PM
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open 3-2-2 with hd ofc, pile everything onto food, build temple with gold vills, after u click up move vills to 6 w 6 g, get 2 favor from temple then put him back onto food

proceed taking 2nd tc


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Lord Antares
post Mar 1 2020, 05:22 PM
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QUOTE(Hagrit @ Mar 1 2020, 10:08 PM)
open 3-2-2 with hd ofc, pile everything onto food, build temple with gold vills, after u click up move vills to 6 w 6 g, get 2 favor from temple then put him back onto food

proceed taking 2nd tc
*



Thanks.



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