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Why didn't the bible say to abolish slavery?, ***Ending Religion Part 1***
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Orion_Zorn
post May 28 2007, 10:55 AM
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I found this quote on the net:

"Slavery was an integral part of the social, economic, and institutional life of the ancient Middle East. The Bible writers refer to it repeatedly as a fact of life. They neither endorsed nor condemned it. It was so intricately woven into the fabric of society that neither the patriarchs nor the nation of Israel could avoid being caught up in it. It was probably more humane than other alternatives people would have chosen at that time. Most of the people taken as slaves would have otherwise been slaughtered. Yet the Old Testament does not endorse it. On the contrary, it teaches principles which, had they been put into practice, would have led to its abolition"

This really seems like an excuse, and you can find things like this all over the web. They would have 'probably' have been better off anyway. pfft.

Why wasn't one of the Commandments 'Abolish Slavery'. Dont covet thy neighbors wife is one of the top ten, but for slavery we have to figure it out? ("teaches principles which, had they been put into practice, would have led to its abolition")

Brought to you by the "Atheists are Tired of Being Attacked by Zealots" Association.

This post has been edited by Orion_Zorn: May 28 2007, 10:56 AM

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StarGazeR
post May 28 2007, 01:49 PM
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Did you even read the quote you quoted?

Do you understand what extreme poverty is? Do you think a person living in extreme poverty during biblical times was better off working for room and board or starving to death?

Do you think that slavery has been abolished today? Really? Keep digging. ;)

When we think of "slavery" we often get images of people being whipped, tortured, exploited, raped, and forced to work and live in unbearable conditions. Yes, of course these things did happen(still do), but it was not always the case.

I am going to reveal some very shocking information so brace yourselves.

Jews and Christians are not the only people who had slaves. :o

Just breath. Take a minute if you need too, I know that hit you hard.

I bet more Jews have been enslaved, exploited, raped, totured, and forced to work and live in unbearable conditions than there have been slaves owned by Jews and Christians combined.

You see there is this country called Egypt and then there was that whole Nazi thing. I'm sure you have heard about it, but there really is no need for me to justify or make excuses for Jews or Christians owning slaves because the Bible does in fact cover it. You missed it.

"Do unto others as you would have them do to you". Luke 6:31

Follow that one and you won't be whipping, torturing, exploiting, raping, or forcing anyone to work and live in unbearable conditions.

Any Christian who does has sinned. It is then their individual responsibilty to make it right, with the people they have mistreated and with God.

Ok, that covers Christians, But what about Jews?

Exodus 23:9 You shall not oppress a resident alien; you know the heart (Hebrew nephesh, the soul) of an alien, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt.


Lev 19:33-34 When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. When an alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien. I am the Lord your God.


Deut 10:17-19 For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who is not partial and takes no bribe, who executes justice for the orphan and the widow, and who loves the strangers, providing them food and clothing. You shall also love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Jer 7:5-7 For if you truly amend your ways and your doings, if you truly act justly one with another, if you do not oppress the alien, the orphan, and the widow, or shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not go after other gods to your own hurt, then I will dwell with you in this place, in the land that I gave of old to your ancestors forever and ever.

Jer 22:1-3 Thus says the Lord: Go down to the house of the king of Judah, and speak there this word, and say: Hear the word of the Lord, O King of Judah sitting on the throne of David you, and your servants, and your people who enter these gates. Thus says the Lord: Act with justice and righteousness, and deliver from the hand of the oppressor anyone who has been robbed. And do no wrong or violence to the alien, the orphan, and the widow, or shed innocent blood in this place.

Ok, I think that covers Christians and Jews. I will let Mercy or Cloud defend Muslims as they are more qualified than I.

Now I imagine you are going to come back and say "but you have shown nothing where the Bible addresses slavery directly". Well, you would be right, I didn't actually find a passage where the Bible specifically says "thou shalt not have slaves".

I also didn't find a passage that says "thou shalt not butt sex a rabbit" or "thou shalt not hang upside down and piss in your own mouth".

God gave us something called "common sense". I think he expects us to use it.


QUOTE
Brought to you by the "Atheists are Tired of Being Attacked by Zealots" Association.


Now that is good humour, especially since Christians, especially white Christians, are the last fair game in this country.

If I say n1gger, spic, chink, wap, wet back, beaner, jap, f@ggot, rag head, camel jockey, spear chunker, queer, or godless athiest scum bag that would make me a racist or a bigot but if I put a crucifix in a jar of piss that would make me an artist. :rolleyes:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ
(IMG:http://www.uniurb.it/Filosofia/bibliografie/Bataille_GiuliaFrattini/images/Serrano%20Andres,%20Piss%20Christ%201987.jpg)

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Orion_Zorn
post May 28 2007, 01:55 PM
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i posted this in the torden thread, i thought I would post it here to save you time.

(IMG:http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r219/zorno/ignore.jpg)

edit: hey lookie that, it works.

(IMG:http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r219/zorno/ignore1.jpg)

This post has been edited by Orion_Zorn: May 28 2007, 01:59 PM

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StarGazeR
post May 28 2007, 02:33 PM
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For those of you who don't have me on ignore, please take a lesson from the childish and cowardly actions of Zorn and Torden.

If you truly believe in something, don't be afraid to stand your ground just because your opponent is getting the better of you. If you are right, the truth will prevail in the end. If you are wrong, maybe it is time to reevaluate your position.

Don't let your pride close your mind.


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Roark
post May 28 2007, 02:48 PM
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That's a shame, Zorn. Gazer's post in this thread was a great response to your topic.

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sKiLLfrEE
post May 28 2007, 03:15 PM
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I guess you know that I dislike the way HOW Gazer expresses his opinion. But I do respect and sometimes (not very often though) even agree with WHAT he says.

Gazer is 100% right here. That was a horribly poor attempt to pick on christians/the bible/whatever....

I also despise the whole ignore-list thingy. It´s just an easy way to avoid refutation. And it is unfair considering the fact that Gazer -as staff member- isnt able to use this feature as well.


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Lucyano
post May 28 2007, 03:37 PM
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[admin mode off, normal mode on]

That, and personally I don't think the VIP forums were meant as an environment in which people should reckon they would do well putting other people on ignore. If you'd have ignored someone who was an idiot, a complete and utter moron or someone whose posts were illegible, then you'd have a point. But that's not the reason you're ignoring him, is it?

Luc

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Orion_Zorn
post May 28 2007, 04:20 PM
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no, thats it exactly. I did ignore him because he is a "an idiot, a complete and utter moron". no joke.

Look the feature is there, i havent read one thing he has read that has taught me anything, his posts are a joke. Roark, blue, both religious conservatives, and i have learned from them, and been proven wrong (i think? :) )

But when someone says we need to eat pandas and ignores that other animals are close to extinction because of the grand capitalism...

well why do i need to read that? The feature is there, i didnt see any instructions on how we are supposed to use it, and how not to. Why should it matter who i ignore, and who i dont? I do admit, I am guilty of making it well known, because I think someone as arrogant as stargazer needs to know that someone here disliked what he said SO much that he would rather not see his words at all. Not that he would really care, i would think...

as for this topic, I apologize to the religious readers, but I am SICK and TIRED of seeing the conservatives talk about atheists and/or liberals like they are the scourge.

on topic-

I should have bolded "probably", not the entire sentence. The idea is - they are guessing. People would have 'probably' been better off.

You cant fall back on the idea that 'if people had understood the bible correctly and followed its teachings, slavery would have been abolished at some point.'

With soemthing this big, dont you think it would have been something that God would have talked about very clearly, and seriously? Why would he not spell it out? Why is it not a commandment?

"most of the people taken as slaves would have otherwise been slaughtered?" so its ok that american had slaves because they 'would likely have died of starvation in africa anyway?' cmon, does that make any sense at all?

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Roark
post May 28 2007, 05:06 PM
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QUOTE
Roark, blue, both religious conservatives


I'm an agnostic conservative. Religion guides none of my ideas

QUOTE
"most of the people taken as slaves would have otherwise been slaughtered?" so its ok that american had slaves because they 'would likely have died of starvation in africa anyway?' cmon, does that make any sense at all?


The slavary of that time was mainly debtors and POWs. Debtors paid off their debts through manual labor to the person they owed the money, while surrendering POWs were spared their lives in exchange for their labor. It's still barbaric, but the analogy is a little off.

American slavary was a whole different atrocity, as it involved the business of importing slaves who were thoroughly uninvolved in any conflict with America.

This post has been edited by Roark: May 28 2007, 05:11 PM

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StarGazeR
post May 28 2007, 05:22 PM
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He took my "Eat the Pandas" post seriously. :thumbsup:

It's called illustrating absurdity by being absurd. It is fun as hell, especially with liberals because they have no sense of humour and never recognize it. :lol:

QUOTE
"most of the people taken as slaves would have otherwise been slaughtered?" so its ok that american had slaves because they 'would likely have died of starvation in africa anyway?' cmon, does that make any sense at all?


This is a common trick. The quote "most of the people taken as slaves would have otherwise been slaughtered" was a statement made about slavery in biblical times. The person was no more "guessing" than I am when I read a history book with the assumption that it is at least mostly accurate.

Notice how he took that quote out of context and applied it to American slavery, then has the nerve to ask you if it makes sense. :lol:

Please don't fall for crap like this.

@Zorn: I know you are reading my replies. I don't think you have the will power not too. Respond to my first reply Zorn. Grow up!! Drop this stupid ignore crap.

Besides, if I really am "an idiot, a complete and utter moron" you should be able to tear me apart easily. Maybe you are holding back out of pity. I do appreciate the sympathy, but you have my permission to take the gloves off. After all, I am asking for it aren't I? ;)

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Orion_Zorn
post May 28 2007, 05:34 PM
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oops, sorry roark, i thought you had said you were religious in one of the topics.

edit: or possibly im guilty of stereotyping you, i also thought you were a conservative...

This post has been edited by Orion_Zorn: May 28 2007, 05:35 PM

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MeRcY_NeVeR
post May 28 2007, 06:01 PM
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How could you ignore stargazer hes posts are good. I like relgious debates with him :D

ImO is zorn tring to say that slavery,...........is condoned by christanity?

Anyway the bible was re written then re written again so you can never be too sure with that book. Some guys Mormons came to our house and my mum talked ot them and they gave us a Mormon Bible ^^ I wonder how many bibles are their?

Anyway......imo slavery aint about relgion its about human actions. Zorn go read the bible. When you find the line "salvery is cool" then you have an arguement. However any1 can try look for somthing right about slavery with it if they really wanted and start taking words out of context.

Salvery is jsut brought around by human ignorance. Like look at India its 2007 and they still live in a cast system.


This post has been edited by MeRcY_NeVeR: May 28 2007, 06:03 PM

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Orion_Zorn
post May 28 2007, 06:23 PM
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actually find me the line that says 'slavery is bad' and then ill read it. ;)

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Roark
post May 28 2007, 07:34 PM
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Gazer already gave you that line in his first post which you ignored.

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Orion_Zorn
post May 28 2007, 11:02 PM
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well I unignored stargazer. i had NO idea it would cause this much of a hassle.

stargazer and i hashed things out over pms, basically we both admitted we crossed the line and both apologized. If anything, i started it. ;)

on topic:



This post has been edited by Orion_Zorn: May 29 2007, 11:00 AM



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