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Irrational Atheism
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Why do atheists accuse Christians of being irrational, dogmatic, and unwilling to defend their beliefs, and yet when they themselves are confronted with logic, they behave exactly as do their conception of Christians?
 
1) Because they are uneducated dolts? [ 19 ] ** [28.79%]
2) Because they fall prey to their heuristic biases like all men. [ 16 ] ** [24.24%]
3) Because they have their sh*t together [ 31 ] ** [46.97%]
Total Votes: 66
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KrIzZzY
post Nov 5 2011, 01:10 PM
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Game over.

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ArmyCore
post Dec 31 2011, 03:19 AM
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QUOTE([eX�)
Barnsy,Oct 26 2011, 11:45 PM]
If christians were to examine their religion and god with the same fervour they destroy other gods, they would realise how silly their storybook is. I've done quite a bit of historical research on the bible because I was curious, it's very disturbing that the gospel is actually a multiple repeat of the same original manuscript.
*



My undergraduate degree is in Ancient and Medieval History. In fact, I took an entire course on this topic, and it is too complex to discuss. You are not entirely wrong, and although you’re far from correct, I don’t think this really warrants any sort of debate.


QUOTE([eX�)
Barnsy,Oct 26 2011, 11:45 PM]
I am also vry annoyed at people quoting the bible at me as 'proof' that their silly spaghetti monster exists. Reading a book written by men (and it WAS written by men, last I checked bibles were made in printing presses and edited regularly) you would HAVE to be sceptical of anything claiming to be a creator of the universe and ultimate judge. Furthermore, too much of the bible contradicts itself. Ironically, you only hear the happy-go-lucky quotes, not the darker and disturbing ones ('kill all women except the virgins' comes to mind from exodus, funny how we never hear that in kiddy moses stories). The illogic of a 'loving god' who proceeds to kill all the firstborn sons of an entire civilization also boggles my mind. How is that logical Armycore? How about the doctrine of predestination? According to your bible, a baby who dies stillborn goes to hell. A person who has never had an opportunity to hear 'the word of god' goes to hell. Christians cover this with wishy washy poo, but that IS what the bible says.
*



The Bible is full of contradictions, although the message of Christ is rather straightforward. He states that everything can be summed up by his commandment: “love one another as I loved you.” This seems simple enough. I don’t know why you’re attempting to tell me how the Bible should be interpreted anyways, you admit you are godless, and are obviously referencing some fruited up Americans whos’ teachings you seem to be privy to. The old testament is the historical book of the history of the Jewish people, and the God of the old testament seems profoundly different from that of the new, and I think that is result of different frames of reference upon writing, different cultures etc. You said yourself that the Bible was written by men, what you neglected to mention that they are men separated by thousands of years of time. It seems self-evident to me that inconsistencies should creep in, and it doesn’t strike me as being a very important fact.

Regardless of all that, nothing in my argument had anything whatsoever to do with the Bible, in fact, I never even mentioned the Bible, Jesus, Angels, or anything of the sort. It seems that you have done so because of some misappropriated anger towards the peculiar sort of “Christians” that reside in America. They are in Alberta too, and I have more in common with you than them, of this I am sure. In fact, my family was rent to pieces by evangelical religion, they converted some people in my family, they became born-agains, and my family was destroyed within a year. I have not seen them in almost a decade. They are the sort of people to whom I think your rage is directed, mine as well. They are Biblical literalists etc. None of this is really germane to what I was talking about, but it was an interesting excursus.

QUOTE([eX�)
Barnsy,Oct 26 2011, 11:45 PM]
At the end of the day, I really believe that religion, and christianity in particular, have been the bane of humanity since the early days of humanity. The many centuries of the Dark Ages were brought about as a direct consequence of the Catholic control over society.
*



As a medievalist, your appraisal of history is very misguided. I’ll do my best to correct you as quickly as I can.

The “Dark Age” is not very well defined. I would be interested to know what you consider the dark ages, although medievalists generally place them from the mid-400s into the late 700s. The term dark age merely denotes the absence of surviving documents from the era, so the dark ages are not at all a derogatory term (as you seem to imply), it is a descriptive term (the same way that Africa was called the dark continent, due to it not being fully mapped in the 19th century).

The main reason that we have a “dark age” from a historiographical standpoint is because of the turbulence of the times, whole cultures were migrating and blending, and the following militarism of the middle ages, which wouldn’t have been half so bad were it not for the Vikings and Arabs targeting monasteries, and burning most of the documents from that time.

The “dark ages” as an epoch in time began with the fall of the Roman Empire to the Germanic barbarians. This really has nothing to do with “Catholic control,” and more to do with a total lack of control on a grand scale. Unless you’re Edward Gibbon and happen to be writing hundreds of years ago, I don’t think you can find a way to blame the Catholics for the fall of Rome, and I’m not sure why you would want to.

QUOTE([eX�)
Barnsy,Oct 26 2011, 11:45 PM]
I believe science has been set back hundreds of years as a direct consequence of religion.
*



This is false. In fact, the Western Christian (Medieval Catholic) world view was precisely what allowed science to flourish in the first place. The case has been propounded thoroughly by Dr. Thomas Woods. If you would like, I will present an outline for you, but I’m not going to bother if it’s something no one is ever going to read.

QUOTE([eX�)
Barnsy,Oct 26 2011, 11:45 PM]
Millions of people die because of their religion alone (Rwanda massacres and the holocaust among others). Our planet is in a poopie state because religion always considers that the planet is just human property to be treated as he sees fit. Where is the love in all this religion?
*



I’m not sure how you managed to blame pollution, global warming, and genocide on religion, but you did it. Your mind must be a fruited up place my friend. As for Rwanda, I think it’s fairly obvious that post-colonial tensions, tribal rivalry, group-think, and behavioural cascades were mostly to blame, but you are free to disagree. The holocaust didn’t have anything to do with religion. In fact, the wholesale murder of people is in direct opposition to Christianity (Do not murder, and stuff like that). There certainly were nationalistic forces at work, and it is interesting to note that Nazism and communism are diametrically opposed to any form of religion. The state replaces religion. Religion was banned in the communist world, and Nazis renounced their Christian faith. It is safe to say that the atrocities perpetrated were only enabled because the leaders were devoid of any sort of religious morality. The fact that Christians have been spearheading environmentalism since the industrial revolution seems to contradict your baseless invective.

Nothing you have said strikes me as being particularly well thought out or intelligent. It surprises me that you are working towards a phd, but I presume you live in the USA, so I suppose it shouldn't really surprise me. . . .

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goodspeed
post Dec 31 2011, 08:47 AM
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hmm so i skimmed over this thread and i haven't seen AC attempting to answer the important question "if god is the explanation for all existence coming from nothing, who created god?". i notice that religious people, whether they're trying to sound logical or not, always evade this question with impressive consistency so i would love for you (AC) to address it.

This post has been edited by goodspeed: Dec 31 2011, 08:51 AM

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Slow_Runner
post Jan 3 2012, 03:38 AM
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QUOTE(Armycore)
As for Rwanda, I think it’s fairly obvious that post-colonial tensions, tribal rivalry, group-think, and behavioural cascades were mostly to blame, but you are free to disagree. The holocaust didn’t have anything to do with religion. In fact, the wholesale murder of people is in direct opposition to Christianity (Do not murder, and stuff like that).

Colonialism was a direct consequence of the Christian ethos of spreading the word, by force if and when need be. Crusades were wholesale murder of people by the mandate of the Christian leadership of the time. Yes they were diametrically opposed to the message of Christianity that good Christians like to promote (love thy neighbour != stab thy neighbour in the face and burn thy neighbour's cities), but nonetheless any and all actions of the church are a result of Christianity and certainly at the time crusades were not seen as unchristian.

Also, without religious dogma dictating that the world is flat, that people walked side by side with dinosaurs and that humans could not have evolved from apes because they were God's children and created perfect, science could have advanced at a much faster pace throughout history. I've mentioned this before, but it bears repeating: science and religion do not mesh; one is about believing based on evidence and common sense (people can not walk on water, therefore miracles are a sham therefore the bible is humbug) while the other is about believing without, and often despite evidence and common sense to the contrary (even though we know that people can not walk on water, we still believe that Jesus did, despite common sense saying otherwise).

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ArmyCore
post Feb 23 2012, 01:28 AM
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QUOTE(goodspeed @ Dec 31 2011, 07:47 AM)
hmm so i skimmed over this thread and i haven't seen AC attempting to answer the important question "if god is the explanation for all existence coming from nothing, who created god?". i notice that religious people, whether they're trying to sound logical or not, always evade this question with impressive consistency so i would love for you (AC) to address it.
*



As I have stated, that's a rather silly question. If God created existence, then God must "exist" beyond the laws of existence, ergo God would be an unrestricted entity, unbounded with regard to existence. The question itself is invalid. This strikes me as being rather simple.

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ArmyCore
post Feb 23 2012, 02:07 AM
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QUOTE(Slow_Runner @ Jan 3 2012, 02:38 AM)
Colonialism was a direct consequence of the Christian ethos of spreading the word, by force if and when need be.
*



The civil war was basically the result of ethnic tensions between the Hutu majority and Tutsi minority. This was clearly an ethnographic conflict, a bad situation having been inflamed by diversionist European colonial policies. Although, you are free to retain your jaundiced position.


QUOTE(Slow_Runner @ Jan 3 2012, 02:38 AM)
Crusades were wholesale murder of people by the mandate of the Christian leadership of the time. Yes they were diametrically opposed to the message of Christianity that good Christians like to promote (love thy neighbour != stab thy neighbour in the face and burn thy neighbour's cities), but nonetheless any and all actions of the church are a result of Christianity and certainly at the time crusades were not seen as unchristian.
*



You are responding to the crusades anachronistically, probably because you have no formal training in history. The crusades were originally preached by Pope Urban II in response to a Byzantine plea for help against the encroaching Turks, first, to defend the empire; and second, to reclaim the lands of Christendom from the infidel. The crusades were viewed as a reconquest. One of the key elements of the original crusade was that it was a “just war” as St. Augustine defined. One of the major elements of the preaching of the crusades was the described violence and atrocities performed by Muslims on the eastern Christians. It is also interesting to know that Christianity was still the majority religion in the Holy Land, in Egypt, and Anatolia: Islam, although a sizable minority, was a minority nonetheless. People at the time viewed it as the liberation of their eastern brothers, of Christendom itself. The crusades were also a response to the apex of Muslim aggression in the Mediterranean since the early 8th century, there was a sentiment of “taking the fight to the enemy” (reminiscent of the USA, UK, and Canada invasion of Afghanistan in 2001). It is also important to remember that Christendom was by no means homogenous in opinion. The twelfth century, for the first time in history, also saw the popular embrace of pacifism in the “Peace of God” movement. This was a time of great contradictions.

QUOTE(Slow_Runner @ Jan 3 2012, 02:38 AM)
Also, without religious dogma dictating that the world is flat, that people walked side by side with dinosaurs and that humans could not have evolved from apes because they were God's children and created perfect, science could have advanced at a much faster pace throughout history. I've mentioned this before, but it bears repeating: science and religion do not mesh; one is about believing based on evidence and common sense (people can not walk on water, therefore miracles are a sham therefore the bible is humbug) while the other is about believing without, and often despite evidence and common sense to the contrary (even though we know that people can not walk on water, we still believe that Jesus did, despite common sense saying otherwise).
*



Every educated man in Europe knew that the world was round since ancient times, they also knew its’ approximate circumference. The first men to study dinosaur fossils, develop the theory of superposition for dating rocks, and the fathers of modern geology were all Jesuit priests. There was no conflict with the knowledge that the world was millions of years old.

You are gravely mistaking about the relationship between Western Christianity and science. The entire reason we have science is due to the Christian world view. If you like, I can demonstrate this to you, but it’s not worth my time, as I do not know whether or not you will ever read this.

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Slow_Runner
post Feb 23 2012, 07:16 AM
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QUOTE
Every educated man in Europe knew that the world was round since ancient times
Ah yes, my apologies. I mixed it up with the heliocentric theory that Christianity banned for a couple of centuries and inquisitioned scientists who theorized about it. Yes, monasteries and such have played a big part in preserving human knowledge, but often only on the knowledge that the church deemed appropriate. In other areas, the church has fought with all its might to stunt advances in science.

Religions have bugger all business getting involved with wars. Never have, never will. And yet, religion often sticks its fingers into such affairs, making an even stickier mess of an already sticky business.

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ArmyCore
post May 5 2012, 10:23 PM
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Punishment.

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DoD_SymphoniC
post May 26 2012, 08:51 AM
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QUOTE(Slow_Runner @ Feb 23 2012, 08:16 AM)
QUOTE
Every educated man in Europe knew that the world was round since ancient times
Ah yes, my apologies. I mixed it up with the heliocentric theory that Christianity banned for a couple of centuries and inquisitioned scientists who theorized about it. Yes, monasteries and such have played a big part in preserving human knowledge, but often only on the knowledge that the church deemed appropriate. In other areas, the church has fought with all its might to stunt advances in science.

Religions have bugger all business getting involved with wars. Never have, never will. And yet, religion often sticks its fingers into such affairs, making an even stickier mess of an already sticky business.
*



Humans find ways to war and slaughter, with or without religion.

For recent historical example, see: USSR (atheistic genocide--religion was formally abolished under Soviet rule, with leaders/practitioners sent to labor camps/exterminated)

Generally speaking, in cases of "holy wars," the pattern is for a select group of people (kings, politicians, big business, etc.) to see potential profit in conquering another territory and seizing its assets. The group/person in power does not have the ability to do this alone and must rely on the force of his people to assist. How can he inspire these people to put their lives on the line? Often it is by invoking religious sentiment and proclaiming that religious freedom is at stake or that the war is some sort of expression of religious superiority (i.e. crushing the infidels). This does not indict religion itself as a cause for war, but rather a tool used in the process. You'll find as many people who will NOT fight due to religious purposes (pacifists) as you will people who WILL fight (extremists) as a result of religious beliefs.

To respond to your statement, then, that "religions have bugger all business getting involved with wars," a point on which I agree with you, tell me: who does, though?

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Cryplex
post May 27 2012, 06:44 AM
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...people who have abused tools such as religion to get into positions of power outside religious matters.
This tool is one of the easiest to abuse as well and is most likely not split from other matters of power today.

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Stud
post Jun 4 2013, 07:10 AM
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Religion never bothered me as long as it pertained to a person living there life in a better way and it makes them happy and there not hurting anyone then let them believe what they want.I personally believe once you die, your cells break down and the life cycle continues and that's it. People always wonder about the afterlife, but the world functioned before we were here and it will function after.

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[DoD]Quasar
post Jul 19 2013, 10:42 PM
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nvm

This post has been edited by DoO_Quasar: Jul 19 2013, 10:42 PM

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DoD_J4Jc3
post Mar 20 2014, 11:13 AM
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ArmyCore
post Mar 21 2014, 01:37 AM
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QUOTE(DoD_J4Jc3 @ Mar 20 2014, 10:13 AM)


Infinitely close but infinitely far :unsure:



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