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Ways to die
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Dani
post Jan 16 2009, 05:10 AM
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I don't know if this is too morbid, but I've been thinking about it for a while.

Which is worse? A person suicided or a person murdered?

A person murdered is terrible because that persons life was taken and (hypothetically) there were no preventative measures. That person didn't have a say in how they died, however, it was quick and relatively painless.

A person suicided is terrible because that person was suffering so much personal pain that could, perhaps been prevented. The death was dragged out, maybe over years of depression, thoughts, heartache. The person decided there was no alternative but death. Death was the only escape; to end your own life.

Imagine the family and friends for both situations. Both would probably come as a shock. The family of the murdered would probably experience a lot of anger towards the killer, and might lack closure until that person is found and the motives revealed. They would feel they have had something forcefully taken from them.

The family of the suicided would probably feel guilt, remorse; perhaps they could of prevented the incident in some way? Talked to the person more often, found out why they were so desperate to end it all.

Which is worse?

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Orion_Zorn
post Jan 16 2009, 08:25 AM
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My uncle recently committed suicide, and at first I was going to say murder was worse... but I think they are about equal, or close enough that it doesnt really make any difference.

The only advantage to suicide is that the person could possibly die painlessly, while murder might be instant, it could also be horrific. I would rather think someone died painlessly than think their last moments were of pain and suffering.

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bridarshy
post Jan 16 2009, 02:26 PM
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From personally experiencing wanting to kill myself very much in past times, I have a different view on suicide. I think if someone wants to kill themselves they should have every right to. It is their body, their property, and they shouldn't be forced to stay, but allowed to escape their pain if they want to.This is more a legal stance than a moral stance I suppose. We don't live in a bubble, and committing suicide effects those around us too, so it can be selfless.

Suicide is not a solution though, I'm not saying it is the 'right choice.' It shouldn't be criminalized. It is because gov't can't have tax-payers killing themselves. I also don't see why it is looked down upon as much as it as, and I don't understand why the typical reaction to someone who says they are suicidal is of great sympathy. Anyone who is suicidal can live life happily, at least they theoretically have this potential.

I would much rather kill myself than be murdered. When you get murdered you don't want to die. When you commit suicide you do. I'd also rather have loved ones kill themselves than be the victim of a murder. Even knowing I 'could have helped them'. Hindsight is 20/20.

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DAMNIT
post Jan 16 2009, 03:07 PM
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QUOTE(bridarshy @ Jan 16 2009, 02:26 PM)
Suicide is not a solution though, I'm not saying it is the 'right choice.' It shouldn't be criminalized. It is because gov't can't have tax-payers killing themselves. I also don't see why it is looked down upon as much as it as, and I don't understand why the typical reaction to someone who says they are suicidal is of great sympathy.  Anyone who is suicidal can live life happily, at least they theoretically have this potential.
*


Popular perspective on suicide has changed throughout history, usually based on cultural perspectives of morality, rather than based on government and ethics. For example, Romans found suicide one of the most brave acts a man could do, since there are only a few things, if any, that are more difficult than taking one's own life. It seems that modern perspective about suicide is based largely on Judeo-Christian beliefs of the immorality of taking one's own soul, and popular psychology.

I also disagree with society's approach to suicide. It feels wrong that people who are deeply suffering should not be allowed to put an end to it by ending their lives. I also strongly disagree non consentual hospitalization. A large part of Psych wards are just terrible.

Because of all of this, I'd say murder is worse than suicide. I see suicide as a privillege, with at least some positive results for the struggling person who commits to it. Murder on the other hand rarely is beneficial for anyone, much less for the majority.

This post has been edited by DAMNIT: Jan 16 2009, 03:08 PM

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Viper
post Jan 17 2009, 01:23 AM
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It really depends on the circumstances behind the suicide. In cases where a suicide is preventable through greater family support, then yes it can be heart-breaking for the family. But when someone is in great pain, suicide is understandable.

Of course murder is always reprehensible.

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mG_Despair
post Jan 17 2009, 09:11 PM
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QUOTE([NerVe]_VipeR_ @ Jan 17 2009, 01:23 AM)
It really depends on the circumstances behind the suicide. In cases where a suicide is preventable through greater family support, then yes it can be heart-breaking for the family. But when someone is in great pain, suicide is understandable.

Of course murder is always reprehensible.
*


Completely.

A suicide due to a terminal illness might be at least some what defensible, but could you defend a natzi-esque cyanide pill suicide of that sort that many commited so they would not be held responsible for thheir actions?

Whether a murder is always reprehensible is debatable, as are the motives behind murder.

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Viper
post Jan 17 2009, 11:26 PM
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In a suicide you take your own life - so it is your decision.

In a murder you take somebody else's life - they have no choice in the matter.

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Stud
post Jan 18 2009, 01:13 AM
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Well wait what if its a murder suicide, then noone wins right? Look at what the wrestler chris benniot did, he killed his family then himself. Or what if its a kill or be killed, like person a has a gun at person b, and b has a gun at c and if b dont shoot c then a shoots b, so b :boxed: is fruited either way , so yea...

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larky
post Jan 18 2009, 06:15 AM
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i don't think murder definitely is always reprehensible, thats just what gov't has everyone thinking because murder is always illegal no matter the circumstances. There are plenty of circumstances where murder would actually be the good and brave thing to do, if not then at least understandable.

as for suicide i think it's a really weak thing to do and extremely hurtful to relatives... nothings more painful than finding out ur brother/son/etc kill himself. but it's not always bad and i respect that sometimes people just don't have a choice, i'd say if someone can get the will power to actually put themselves thru pain of death their situation probably is pretty bad so what they do is understandable.

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Viper
post Jan 18 2009, 01:01 PM
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QUOTE
There are plenty of circumstances where murder would actually be the good and brave thing to do, if not then at least understandable.

As in?

The only murder I could understand would be vigilante justice in the cases of people such as Osama bin Laden.

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larky
post Jan 18 2009, 01:09 PM
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Murdering some1 as revenge for someone who killed a family/loved one/friend e.g. wife mother or kids

killing someone to prevent them from doing something thats worse

killing someone who is in so much pain (e.g. terminal illness, depression) that letting them live would be the selfish/cruel thing to do.

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larky
post Jan 18 2009, 01:11 PM
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by the way i'm not talking about murder in the legal sense becz obviously if you do any of those things youre going away for a long time regardless

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Viper
post Jan 18 2009, 01:26 PM
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QUOTE
Murdering some1 as revenge for someone who killed a family/loved one/friend e.g. wife mother or kids

I listed the case of Osama because he has helped kill thousands. Murdering someone who has killed a few people as an act of personal revenge isn't on the same level. Although I can understand doing the same sort of thing if faced with that myself.

QUOTE
killing someone to prevent them from doing something thats worse

That's what the police are for.

QUOTE
killing someone who is in so much pain (e.g. terminal illness, depression) that letting them live would be the selfish/cruel thing to do.

That's assisted suicide, not murder. If you're talking about doing it without their consent, then no that is not understandable.

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mG_Despair
post Jan 18 2009, 02:07 PM
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QUOTE([NerVe]_VipeR_ @ Jan 18 2009, 01:01 PM)
QUOTE
There are plenty of circumstances where murder would actually be the good and brave thing to do, if not then at least understandable.

As in?

The only murder I could understand would be vigilante justice in the cases of people such as Osama bin Laden.
*


We'll use a pretty common case in large cities to take a look at this.

Suppose mugger x mugs victim y, but victim y fights back against the mugging by shoving mugger x through a glass storefront, which kills him.

Victim y has clearly murdered someone, who was certainly not guilty of killing thousands. But mugger x brought it upon himself by engaging in a dangerous and illegal action. Should victim y be held accountable for the murder? Should he be set free? Should he be tried on a lesser charge?

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larky
post Jan 18 2009, 04:57 PM
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QUOTE
QUOTE
killing someone to prevent them from doing something thats worse

That's what the police are for.
Suppose that for whatever reason police are unable to help, which isn't unreasonable as depending on where you live police can take a while to arrive and you might not be able to call the police.

QUOTE
QUOTE
killing someone who is in so much pain (e.g. terminal illness, depression) that letting them live would be the selfish/cruel thing to do.

That's assisted suicide, not murder. If you're talking about doing it without their consent, then no that is not understandable.
*

No? i could see why you would disagree with doing it but if someone like your wife or a parent has terminal illness and is unable/unwilling to give consent then i would understand murder if they are obviously living in misery and will not return to a normal life. obviously there are exceptions to this

tho my original point was that murder is not always bad... everyone who has ever supported a war MUST agree with this



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