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Can I still go to heaven?
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KS_Rockstar
post Jan 27 2007, 07:06 PM
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im getting a kick out of gazer and islam on the same team too!

on a serious note, lets try to discuss and not flame each other.

topics like this can be obviously very heated because every body will have such strong feelings about their belifes. so its fine to say you dont believe in god or a god but dont tell the other person they are an arshole because of their beliefes.

im not pointing any fingers as we have all been doing it a bit to each other.

fight fair!!!
rs.

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ravaneli
post Jan 28 2007, 01:02 PM
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@ SGazer -

yes, your answer is valid and logically robust. If that were the case indeed I wouldn't have started the whole thread. But you must admit the answers from the believers here have been contradictive to what you said, hence the argument.

I see you are a bright fella but you know about the strandard distribuion spread and the outliers, right? You cannot move the average and it has been solidly proven over 200 yrs of research that as IQ increases the percentage of people who believe in God decreases. Again, I don't post this as a proof of nonexistance of God, but as that religion is not logical, the defending arguments for it are inconsequent and incoherent. If you disagree with that I would like to hear.

@ Cloud -- I GO WITH THE CROWD???? Have you checked what percentage of world is religious? About 90? Listen man why do you never make sense? Seriously, tell me. I am not attacking you because you are religious and I want to flame all believers. Your arguments are all like this:

The sky is blue and therefore this dog must be male. Man your arguments are always unrelated to your conclusions. Out of curiousity, how r u doin in math?

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StarGazeR
post Jan 28 2007, 07:59 PM
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QUOTE(ravaneli @ Jan 28 2007, 12:02 PM)
@ SGazer -

yes, your answer is valid and logically robust. If that were the case indeed I wouldn't have started the whole thread. But you must admit the answers from the believers here have been contradictive to what you said, hence the argument.
*


That is the case. It is in the bible worded as plainly as it can be.

1 Timothy 1: 8-10
QUOTE
8. But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

9. Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10. For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;


The problem with so many religious people is that they have not read the scriptures. They don't understand what is said or why things arethe way they are. Often times they have been intimidated by "fire & brimstone" preachers to the point that they are afraid to ask questions or to question why God did some of the things he has done.

So they say the only things they know. They say it is this way or that way or you go to hell. It would be nice if the next time you speak with someone who is like this, point them to the verses I have quoted, or better yet, suggest they actually read the bible before they start deciding who is and isn't going to hell.

QUOTE(ravaneli @ Jan 28 2007, 12:02 PM)
I see you are a bright fella but you know about the strandard distribuion spread and the outliers, right? You cannot move the average and it has been solidly proven over 200 yrs of research that as IQ increases the percentage of people who believe in God decreases. Again, I don't post this as a proof of nonexistance of God, but as that religion is not logical, the defending arguments for it are inconsequent and incoherent. If you disagree with that I would like to hear.
*



Maybe not so solid as some would have you believe. I will quote for you a couple of posts I made in the thread that this discussion should be taking place in.

QUOTE(StarGazeR @ Nov 18 2006, 04:42 PM)
QUOTE(Hazard @ Nov 18 2006, 03:52 PM)
Everyone is entitled to good ideas, but religion does not have the monopoly or copyright on good morals/ethics etc. There is no perfect system for everybody, religious, legal, moral, ethical, or otherwise. Which is why stagnating it by basing it in a set-in-stone religion would accomplish nothing but stopping the growth/evolution of a people. You may not like where it is going, but the basis of democracy is majority rule. Cake! Eating not nessecarily included.
*



:lol: :lol: So you think we are evolving. :w00t:

I have evidence to the contrary.

This is a letter written to his wife in 1863. He was not a scholar, just an ordinary soldier. This is during a time when almost everyone was religious in this country.

QUOTE
Brandy Station,
Sunday night, Nov. 1 [1863]


My dear Mollie
I rcd a letter today from a very handsome lady to play cupid. Although not accompanied by her likeness yet her image was so indelibly impressed upon my mind that the likeness itself could not recall the features more vividly than they are impressed. I first met her in a village in Western Va when I was about 17 years old and she 8. I afterwards saw her frequently and occasionally was in her company, and nonwithstanding the disparity of our ages, I became so favorably impressed with her fair face and gentle manners that I frequently said to myself that I wished she was older or I younger.

In 3 to 4 years she had grown so much that the disparity in age seemed to grow less. Never did a lady witness the budding of a flower with more requisite pleasure than did I the budding of that pretty little girl into womanhood. She made much of my thoughts while in Mexico and more upon my return home. While at the University of Va., I not infrequently found my thoughts wandering from the dry textbook to contemplate by the aid of memory the features and form of this little girl.

After I completed my studies, I traveled in the west and expected to find a home in some western state, but not finding a place to suit me, together with the persuasions of that fair face, induced me to return.

I entered, as you know, actively into the pursuit of my profession with the determination to make at least a fair reputation and tried to withdraw my thought from everything else, but I found this little fairy constantly and pleasantly intruding into all my plans, whether of pleasure or interest. At this period she met me politely and respectfully but seemed to grow more distant, coy & reserved, so that I frequently thought that even the ordinary attentions of common politeness & courtesy were no special source of pleasure to her.

In a few instances when she has arrived at about the age of 15 this shyness and reserve seemed to be forgotten, and I would pass an hour or two in the enjoyment of her company with great pleasure to myself and I imagined with at least satisfaction, if not enjoyment, to her. I began to think that my happiness was identified with hers. I began to pay her special visits or at least seek opportunities by which I might be in her company. I sought her society on pleasure rides and thought it not a hardship to ride 65 miles in 24 hours if part of the time might be spent with her. She always exhibited or observed the decorum of modest reserve which might be construed into neither encouragement nor discouragement.

After the delibertation & reflection which I thought due to a matter which involved my happiness for life, I felt that her destiny and mine were probably intended to be united, and that all the adverse counsel which I could give myself could bring no objections. I felt that I ought both as a matter of duty and happiness give my whole life to her, who for 9 years had my attention and devotion, though concealed love.

After a few little billets and interviews, and with a full declaration of the love I desired to bestow, I received a measured and loving response and was made most happy in the anticipation of the celebration of the nuptials fixed at some 6 months hence. This time glided nicely & happily, though not too rapidly, away from me. The hours of leisure were spent with her and my visits were always welcomed with that cordial welcome, that maiden modesty, so much to be admired. Tis true that on one occasion she did rest her elbow upon my knee and look with confidential pleasure in my face and made me realize that indeed I had her whole heart.

Suffice it to say, the happy day of our marriage arrived and since then, hours, days, and years of time, confidence & happiness passed rapidly away, and only to make us feel that happy as were the hours of youthful days, they compare not with those of later years and perhaps even these may not be equal to that which is in reserve for us.

I dont know how much pleasure it affords you to go over these days of the past, but to me they will ever be remembered as days of felicity. And how happy the thought that years increase the affection & esteem we have for each other to love & be loved. May it ever be so, and may I ever be a husband worthy of your warmest affections. May I make you happy and in so doing be made happy in return. A sweet kiss and embrace to your greeting.

But maybe you will say it looks ridiculous to see a man getting grayhaired to be writing love letters, so I will use the remnant of my paper otherwise...


Yours affectionately H Black


Now here is a letter from Jonathan Castro in Iraq now that people have become a bit less religious.

QUOTE
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004

Ya OK. The weather, the high for the day is maybe 40 in the night it dips to the low 30's. When you add wind chill of going down the road at 65 MPH, ya its nut shrinking.
As for the women oh ya its all that. haha. The funny ones are the military chicks. "Queen for a year" The ratio is about 100 to 1so they think they are hot poopie. Just wait till they get back home and everything goes back to normal. They will be volunteering to come back to Iraq.
As for Iraq itself, its beautiful except for the whole war thing. The people are nuts. Every last one of them feel that they have to stare you down.
Getting shot at definately sucks. The worst part is they usually shoot and run. My FOB is right outside the city of Mosul, I can literally spit over the fence and hit a city street. I have already been down to Bagdad, Tekrit, and samara. Ya I know all the poopiety parts.
Well I got to be getting back to work. Tell Shultz, Jefferson, and Gonz that I said hey.

Castro


Yes we are evolving at an alarming rate. :boxed:
*




QUOTE(StarGazeR @ Nov 18 2006, 10:55 PM)
QUOTE(Hazard @ Nov 18 2006, 09:50 PM)
Unless you can show me something showing how a decline in religious observances somehow decreased the general intellect of a people somewhere, I don't see how that argument holds water. It's no different then saying because we no longer ride horses we are taller or something of a similar vein.
*



Well here ya go slick.

QUOTE
The Bell Curve devoted one chapter to the question of where we are evolving with regard to IQ (Herrnstein and Murray, 1994). Dysgenics picks up where The Bell Curve left off. Professor Lynn surveys studies from all over the world, and everywhere finds the least intelligent people having the most children. The only exception is sub-Saharan Africa where contraception is rarely used. Our genetic potential for intelligence has been declining in Europe and North America since the mid- 1800s, with a total loss of about 5-8 IQ points. Currently, we are losing almost one IQ point each generation.

The decline in genotypic intelligence coincided with the dissemination of information about contraception. For several centuries prior to 1800, married couples had natural fertility, essentially uninfluenced by efforts to limit it. During this period, there was a strong taboo against sex outside of marriage, and many people never had children because they were too poor to marry. Illegitimacy was rare. Infant mortality was high, especially among the lower classes. Harsh though it may have been, natural selection operated to maintain a healthy population, and to keep intelligence gradually increasing.



http://www.eugenics.net/papers/lynnrev.html

So why do you suppose illegitimacy was rare? Why was sex outside of marriage taboo? Why were the poor in those times so much more responsible family planners?

Religion. Morality and the family were top of the priority list. People put the sanctity of marriage above their own private lust and superficial desires. Children, most of the time, had both parents. There parents taught them religion, morality, and the importance of family.

Now we have begun to drift away from those values and are getting dumber because of it.

The funny thing is that liberals always think they are the smartest people in the room. The truth is they are dragging down the average IQ of every society they live in.
*






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ravaneli
post Jan 28 2007, 09:17 PM
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sorry StatG, I don't get ur last post. I think you went over my IQ so if you could please rephrase this in simpler words I would appreciate it.

How is that related to the fact that as IQ increases percentage of people that believe in God decreases? I am not saying that people are getting smart with time (although thats what I have always thought). I am saying that if you take a large populaion sample and measure IQ and ask if they believe in God it will be smth like this: 90% of all believe, 10% of above 140 believe. 5percent of above 160 believe.. just an example, I made up those numbers.

ALso to your other point; If you were right and you could go to heaven even if you don't believe in God, you better keep that a secret or the whole institution of the church will collapse.

I watched one of these religious shows on TV today, where the pastor was culminating at the end and his face was all red and he was spitting and stuff.. I felt that if he told them "get up and start jumping on one leg" they would do it. In the commercial break he was trying to sell a set of 15 DVDs for $400. A good business that is, I tell ya..

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StarGazeR
post Jan 29 2007, 07:54 PM
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QUOTE(ravaneli @ Jan 28 2007, 08:17 PM)
sorry StatG, I don't get ur last post. I think you went over my IQ so if you could please rephrase this in simpler words I would appreciate it.
*



Screw you. <_<

QUOTE(ravaneli @ Jan 28 2007, 08:17 PM)
How is that related to the fact that as IQ increases percentage of people that believe in God decreases? I am not saying that people are getting smart with time (although thats what I have always thought). I am saying that if you take a large populaion sample and measure IQ and ask if they believe in God it will be smth like this: 90% of all believe, 10% of above 140 believe. 5percent of above 160 believe.. just an example, I made up those numbers.
*


You see the part I put in bold. That's a problem. If you don't understand why that's a problem, wtf I'm I supposed to say?

There is a reason the average IQ is dropping. I think it is obvious. There is also a reason most people with a high IQ choose not to believe in God. The funny thing is that most of these intellectual elites were produced by healthy families with good moral values. They rebel against their upbringing and abandon the very things that made them what they are. They don't need God. They can succeed on their own ability.

If things keep going at their current rate, the intellectual elite will go from being the smartest of the smart to being the least retarded of the retards.

If you can't see the connection, whatever.

QUOTE(ravaneli @ Jan 28 2007, 08:17 PM)
ALso to  your other point; If you were right and you could go to heaven even if you don't believe in God, you better keep that a secret or the whole institution of the church will collapse.
*



It should collapse. These $20,000,000 churches are an abomination. These people care more about having a really nice building than they do about living as the bible they claim to follow instructs. God doesn't care about fancy stained glass and cherry pews. It's the people that matter.

Church is for good people to get together and help each other and the community. It has, in many places, been reduced to a weekly fund raiser for the expansion of an unnecessarily extravagant building.

QUOTE(ravaneli @ Jan 28 2007, 08:17 PM)
I watched one of these religious shows on TV today, where the pastor was culminating at the end and his face was all red and he was spitting and stuff.. I felt that if he told them "get up and start jumping on one leg" they would do it. In the commercial break he was trying to sell a set of 15 DVDs for $400. A good business that is, I tell ya..
*



He will answer for two sins. The first is using God to pad his wallet. The second is making religion look bad to people like you. He will answer for every person he turned off to religion by his public display of greed and hypocrisy.

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KS_Rockstar
post Jan 29 2007, 11:43 PM
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this discussion reminds me of the book, "the pillars of the earth". its one of the best stories of all time imo. ive read it 3 times.

i also think were talking about 2 or 3 issues.

is there a god?

do non believers get to go to heaven?

do bleievers have higher iq's? (not sure how that started).

the difference between belief and religion.

rockstars answers:

dont know.

hope so.

dont care (my iq is well over genious if thats any indication of how important that number is).

beliefes can be good or bad. religion by in large is bad.


those are just my oppinions.

rs.

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Cloud_Ex
post Jan 30 2007, 04:14 AM
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QUOTE
@ Cloud -- I GO WITH THE CROWD???? Have you checked what percentage of world is religious? About 90? Listen man why do you never make sense? Seriously, tell me. I am not attacking you because you are religious and I want to flame all believers. Your arguments are all like this:

The sky is blue and therefore this dog must be male. Man your arguments are always unrelated to your conclusions.


Man, your type drives me nuts. Not going in the theorie but coming with rubish!

QUOTE(Cloud_Ex @ Jan 23 2007, 08:39 PM)
QUOTE
Why do you think humans today are smarter than those who lived in caves and made tools of stone ? Could it be evolution  ?


You are being fooled. We were smarter? I doubt that, were know more now because we passed knowledge from generation to generation.

Watch this.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg1572...-suspected.html

More research has shown us that the distance between apes and humans is greater than we have (been foold to think) thougth. Evolutionist are trying to cross the bridge by ignoring the great space. They make humans look more stupid and apes more humanlike and try to fool you.

Yes h-o-m-o habilis should NOT be specified with "h-o-m-o"!

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin...485406/ABSTRACT

There are very huge gaps in the evolution, (the biggest) one of them is the denial of God. The reason of evolution is also strange, why would fish for example go to land? It costs 30% more energy to move, you need the "develop" longs, a way to save water, a skin which is strong enough to cope againt the drought and the higher temperatures differences, it needs organs to lay eggs with hard shells (very complicated eggs!) or needs to "develop" new instincts to atract the other sexes to find mates, needs other organs to furtulize the eggs from inside..............I CAN GO ON AND ON! Fact is, I dont know why the hell a fish needs to come out of water if it has to "develop" SOO many new things, which will cost it soo much more energy. The only thinkable reason would be a disaster, but then it wouldnt have enough time to develop these things.

Besides evolution cant explain mutation, the explosion of life in the Cambrium era, I CAN GO ON :sleeping:

Experiments trying to mutate species shows how dangerious that is!

(IMG:http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/images/history/mutant_fly.jpg)

You cant just add or remove things from the genetic system. How the hell are you gonna perfect the perfect? How do you want to improve a clock which it is working good? You are lucky if your actions cause nothing, in the worse case you will break it.

Scientist see the above example as a progress, lol I dont see any progress. Besides, where are the new organs and new structure (like feathers, hard shell, or other things which the species are not posessing)? Mutation my arse :whistling: Aint gonna fool me!

ps. Watch this and the other parts. You will see what islam truely calls to (study, gain knowledge, live a good life)!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VDq3LJ8RKRc
*



QUOTE
Like I said before, evolution vs intelligent design have fought in court many times, including US Supreme court. THe best defenders of each thesis summoned and presented. I am not familiar with neither one in detail and cannot argue but cannot imagine that US supreme court is wrong and Mr Cloud here, who doesn't make sense anyway, is right. I only have that much elasticity in my doubts.


That perfectly makes sence!

AND ONCE AGAIN I DONT SEE YOU RESPONDING AT THE TOPIC I GAVE. You are throwing with iq test, I dont care about that cuz I know what religion and science have achieved in the past when both were in complete harmony! If you dont want to gather knowledge (books I mensioned!) then stop wasting my time here.

"You are blind in one eye if you constantly look at the past, but you are blind in both eyes if you forget it!"

QUOTE
Out of curiousity, how r u doin in math?


My math is good, even though logical argumentation is the most important tool (assisted by other sciences) when one is trying to understand life.

QUOTE
The Probability of a Protein Being Formed by Chance is Zero 
There are 3 basic conditions for the formation of a useful protein:
First condition: that all the amino acids in the protein chain are of the right type and in the right sequence

Second condition: that all the amino acids in the chain are left-handed

Third condition: that all of these amino acids are united between them by forming a chemical bond called "peptide bond".

In order for a protein to be formed by chance, all three basic conditions must exist simultaneously. The probability of the formation of a protein by chance is equal to the multiplication of the probabilities of the realisation of each of these conditions.

For instance, for an average molecule comprising of 500 amino acids:

1. The probability of the amino acids being in the right sequence:

There are 20 types of amino acids used in the composition of proteins. According to this: 
-The probability of each amino acid being chosen correctly among these 20 types = 1/20
-The probability of all of those 500 amino acids being chosen correctly = 1/20500= 1/10650
  = 1 chance in 10650


2. The probability of the amino acids being left-handed:


-The probability of only one amino acid being left-handed = 1/2
-The probability of all of those 500 amino acids being left-handed at the same time = 1/2500  =  1/10150
= 1 chance in 10150


3. The probability of the amino acids being combined with a "peptide bond":
Amino acids can combine with each other with different kinds of chemical bonds. In order for a useful protein to be formed, all the amino acids in the chain must have been combined with a special chemical bond called a "peptide bond". It is calculated that the probability of the amino acids being combined not with another chemical bond but by a peptide bond is 50%. In relation to this:
 

-The probability of two amino acids being combined with a "peptide bond" = 1/2
-The probability of 500 amino acids all combining with peptide bonds = 1/2499  = 1/10150
  = 1 chance in 10150
 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  TOTAL PROBABILITY = 1/10650 X 1/10150 X 1/10150 = 10950
= 1 chance in 10950
 

  The probability of an average protein molecule made up of 500 amino acids being arranged in the correct quantity and sequence in addition to the probability of all of the amino acids it contains being only left-handed and being combined with only peptide bonds is "1" over 10950. We can write this number which is formed by putting 950 zeros next to 1 as follows:
10950 =

100.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000. 
000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000. 
000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000. 
000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000. 
000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000. 
000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000. 
000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000. 
000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000. 
000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000. 
000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000. 
000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000. 
000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000. 
000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000. 
000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000. 
000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000. 
000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000. 
000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.



I tried this on my calculator, couldnt go on cuz it was unable to handle more than 300 zeroes :lol:

There are enough evolutionists who have confeced that the evolution theorie is impossible. I see them as a more reliable source than a cort with a jury not knowing things in details!

The evolutiontheorie remains a THEORIE. Yes you "beleive" in it without evidence. Nobody has ever withnissed evolution, the huge gaps in the fossile collection shows that. To say that they haven't found the fossiles is a stupid excuse considering the fact that they are searching for over 140 years!

Cya!

ps. In the holy Quran, the Christians and Jews are called "the people of the book". They have also received words from god, we (the Muslims) must treat them with respect, when not doing so, we would commit crimes against our own religion!

This post has been edited by Cloud_Ex: Jan 30 2007, 04:15 AM

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Tordenskiold
post Jan 30 2007, 06:10 AM
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QUOTE
The evolutiontheorie remains a THEORIE. Yes you "beleive" in it without evidence


And how does that difference from your theory - religion ?

There are a whole lot more evidence in evolution than there is in the Koran or the Bible :sleeping:

QUOTE
“ We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of you just go one god further. ”


This post has been edited by Tordenskiold: Jan 30 2007, 06:13 AM

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plexiq
post Jan 30 2007, 07:16 AM
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QUOTE
The evolutiontheorie remains a THEORIE. Yes you "beleive" in it without evidence. Nobody has ever withnissed evolution, the huge gaps in the fossile collection shows that. To say that they haven't found the fossiles is a stupid excuse considering the fact that they are searching for over 140 years!


Of course its a theory. Thats how science works. Someone comes up with a theory, and if it fits the empiric observations better than the current theory, the old one is dismissed and replaced by the new one - until someone else comes up with yet a better one.

Evolution theory is not meant to be the ultimate truth, its just a tool to explain / predict our world. There is lots of evidence supporting evolution theory, but that doesnt mean evolution theory is proven right. (And this holds for every scientific theory, you cant prove them right. But you can prove a theory wrong if you find empiric evidence that clearly conflicts with the theory.)

When we find fossils/dinosaurs, human/ape-"mixes", mutated species etc., this supports evolution theory because what we observe fits well into the theory. But it doesnt mean that the theory is proven (again, it CANT be proven right). However, if someone comes up with a new theory, the new theory will have to explain these observations at least as well as evolution theory does, otherwise it will most likely not be widely accepted.

So, until someone else comes up with a new theory which fits/explains our world better - i will continue to accept evolution theory as the best we have right now. Does that mean i believe evolution theory is ultimately correct or complete? No, of course i dont.

This post has been edited by plexiq: Jan 30 2007, 07:50 AM

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ravaneli
post Jan 30 2007, 11:52 AM
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I want to kindly ask you to quote whatever you need from here and post in 'part II'. Thanks.

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sKiLLfrEE
post Jan 30 2007, 01:32 PM
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ok.....im gonna close this one to avoid confusion.

-CLOSED-

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StarGazeR
post Jan 30 2007, 07:14 PM
Post #132


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Good Idea.

This thread was an embarrassment to the random insanity system. :angry:



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