Welcome Guest ( Log In  ·  Register)



4 Pages  1 2 3 > »  
Reply to this topicStart Poll
Is there such a thing as the devine?, a conscious power higher then our own
[ Standard ] · Linear+
Do you believe in a supernatural being(s)?
 
Yes [ 24 ] ** [63.16%]
No [ 14 ] ** [36.84%]
Total Votes: 38
Guests cannot vote 
LoSt Cultivate B.I.G.
post Aug 19 2011, 01:20 PM
Post #1


Major


Group: Banned
Posts: 1,085

Submissions: None
Joined: 5-February 06

Member No.: 31,815






I am not talking about good general teachings by religion. obviously you DONT need to open a religious reading to find out how to live a good life, but it is a one option. I am just wondering how people go in this day and age with regards to truely believing in Godlike figures. :sun:

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
[DoD]Quasar
post Aug 19 2011, 01:37 PM
Post #2


GOTW Reviewer
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 14,441

Submissions: None
Joined: 12-June 08

From: St. Paul, MN, USA
Member No.: 66,835






We had a discussion like this going over on the DoD forums, I'll just post some of my posts which express my views:

QUOTE(DoO_Quasar)
How do explain the existence of an existence? I can't. You can't. No one can. Impossible to ever know all the answers.


QUOTE(DoO_Quasar)
QUOTE(DoD_Bjiggles)

explain the existence of an existence? what do you mean lol



QUOTE(DoO_Qusar)
I mean, not even any of these questions about why the big bang blah blah blah, that's the history of all the mass in the universe, I'm talking on an even grander scale. Think of it like this: reality is what you perceive it to be, correct? So whether or not the individual is correct or not, reality is to him whatever he thinks it is in his mind. It IS reality to him. Well, picture creating the universe in your head as if you are a god, this universe is the universe that exists in the real world. How does mass, time, energy, ANYTHING even exist? How does an existence exist? The fact that an existence exists is the most miraculous thing of all in my opinion, not that any thing within the existence exists, but that the existence itself exists :o



QUOTE(DoO_Quasar)
QUOTE(DoD_J4Jc3)
Creationists could ramble hours and hours about all kinds of things, but there is just this simple question that never gets answered: who created god?


QUOTE(DoO_Quasar)
This is the biggest question posed by most everyday atheists that have any reasoning behind their beliefs, but most philosophers, even those with non-theist inclinations, realize that a sort of self-inclusionary holistic approach can be taken to address this issue. That the 'god' is the 'existence' and the 'existence' is the 'god.' However, although this is, in fact, mathematically possible (see here, and yes, I know I've probably used this link too much 11), this does require some pretty janky 'rules' to be in place at the highest levels of ontology. I've concluded that it's basically some sort of 'magic' at this point (i.e. rules that govern existence are far different than they are visibly right in front of you in everyday life), but this is no more strange 'magic' in my mind than the explanation for the distortion of time past the event horizon in infinite density circumstances.

There's just some janky stuff going on when you look at the extremities of every kind of science, and unless I really go into any of these fields, I'm quite content knowing I'll never be satisfied with my ignorance. For the most part, it really doesn't matter, nor affect any part of my life 11

Can't take life too seriously, as no comes out alive in the end anyways :P


This post has been edited by DoO_Quasar: Aug 19 2011, 01:40 PM

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
LoSt Cultivate B.I.G.
post Aug 19 2011, 01:43 PM
Post #3


Major


Group: Banned
Posts: 1,085

Submissions: None
Joined: 5-February 06

Member No.: 31,815






Sorry but I base my reality in science & its theoretical+applied methodology. There is no conscious all powerful being there :o

This post has been edited by WaR_ChiLLz: Aug 19 2011, 01:48 PM

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
[DoD]Quasar
post Aug 19 2011, 02:21 PM
Post #4


GOTW Reviewer
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 14,441

Submissions: None
Joined: 12-June 08

From: St. Paul, MN, USA
Member No.: 66,835






Hence why I didn't vote in the poll. I have no idea. You can't possibly have any idea either, and if you do, you're wrong. It's impossible to know.

P.S. Did you even read what I wrote? I do not endorse any supreme beings or even the idea of a supreme being, I was simply putting on the cautionary brakes because the person to whom I replied was initially stringently opposed to the possibility of a supreme being.

And just so you know, I do not believe in any distinct, recognizable supreme being, especially not in a religious way. Just so you know where I'm coming from ;)

This post has been edited by DoO_Quasar: Aug 19 2011, 02:24 PM

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
LoSt Cultivate B.I.G.
post Aug 19 2011, 02:26 PM
Post #5


Major


Group: Banned
Posts: 1,085

Submissions: None
Joined: 5-February 06

Member No.: 31,815






QUOTE(DoO_Quasar @ Aug 20 2011, 05:21 AM)
Hence why I didn't vote in the poll. I have no idea. You can't possibly have any idea either, and if you do, you're wrong. It's impossible to know.

p.s. did you even read what I wrote?
*



I believe in coming to a conclusion as best I can gauge regarding what I know on the affects it will ever have on me within this reality, based in science. Its pretty easy to go one way over the other.

Yeah I did read it all, link to entire thread?

This post has been edited by WaR_ChiLLz: Aug 19 2011, 02:28 PM

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
[DoD]Quasar
post Aug 19 2011, 02:30 PM
Post #6


GOTW Reviewer
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 14,441

Submissions: None
Joined: 12-June 08

From: St. Paul, MN, USA
Member No.: 66,835







User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
4servant
post Aug 19 2011, 05:27 PM
Post #7


Lieutenant-General
Group Icon

Group: DOW I Expert
Posts: 3,034

Submissions: None
Joined: 2-July 06

From: Netherlands
Member No.: 89,239






Flash is god, apart from that no ofc not I rather spend my brain energy on things that matter.

This post has been edited by 4servant: Aug 19 2011, 05:29 PM

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
LoSt Cultivate B.I.G.
post Aug 20 2011, 07:57 AM
Post #8


Major


Group: Banned
Posts: 1,085

Submissions: None
Joined: 5-February 06

Member No.: 31,815






I read the thread and there was nothing I hadn't heard and gone through/over before. I guess in the end it is about self gratification in finding happiness as best you can represent to your conscious self based on however your reality is put together for an individual. Never believed in such a mythological higher presence at any single stage of my life, is that normal? I can't imagine it isn't if your parents never pushed anything onto you as a child/growing up, or whenever someone starts "believing" :santa: (father found Christian teachings at a later point in life but I'm not sure if he ever "believed")

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
[DoD]Quasar
post Aug 20 2011, 09:47 AM
Post #9


GOTW Reviewer
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 14,441

Submissions: None
Joined: 12-June 08

From: St. Paul, MN, USA
Member No.: 66,835






Yeah, if you take note of the dates in those threads I had changed how I had consciously thought of the universe a few times by the end of the thread as it spanned many, many months.

This post has been edited by DoO_Quasar: Aug 20 2011, 09:47 AM

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
RTG
post Aug 20 2011, 10:59 PM
Post #10


Field-Marshal
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 6,075

Submissions: None
Joined: 28-October 08

From: Jews Land, Israel.
Member No.: 70,364






1.take your cellular phone, disassemble to its all tiny parts, put them on your table, what is the probability all those part will return to be one cell phone by it self? take any chaos you like, it will never happen.

2.Einstein once said that the universe is so complicated that As more he learn about it he know it less, think about the power of this sentence, its like you are viewing your home 5 meters from you, you know the way to reach it, every step you are taking to get closer the way to your home getting bigger.

3.now we all can make an assumption that the universe is by far more complicate then a cell phone no matter how complicate it is, anything made by mankind You can totally understand and learn.

4.we know that in order to build a cell phone we need to
a. study sciences
b. design and plan
c. create and produce

conclusion : if a relatively very simple cell phone needs all those Steps to be "create" and the probability of it to be created by no human Intervention aims for zero from below how come something endlessly complex will be create by it self ?
something/one create it, i call him god, you can call it what ever you want.

all you know in life, someone Taught you, the smarter he was, It was easier to accept what he said.

the greatest minds of science were Newton and Einstein, they both believed in god.
in fact, Newton wrote more on religion topics then on science. After his death his writings were found in more than1.4 million words about religion, it was more than what he was written on alchemy and mathematics and even more than his writing about physics and astronomy. Including commentary Newton published the Book of Daniel.
einstien once said :"God does not play dice with his world" , guess what was the answer he got from another great mind of the new era Niels Bohr :"Einstein, stop telling God what to do with his dice" .

btw Newton was christian, Einstien and Bohr are jews => it crosses religions.



User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
[DoD]Quasar
post Aug 21 2011, 12:18 AM
Post #11


GOTW Reviewer
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 14,441

Submissions: None
Joined: 12-June 08

From: St. Paul, MN, USA
Member No.: 66,835






I've heard the argument for how complex the universe is and just how 'impossible' it seems to be to have been created, but the simple fact of the matter is:

The universe is the way it is simply because the rules of physics would not allow for it to look like anything else.

You've heard of the 'survival of the fittest,' correct? Well, this concept can not only be applied at the biological level, but with matter at the atomic level as well. Only atoms and compounds which are stable are allowed to exist (based upon the rules of physics, any basic chemistry class teaches how these apply atomically actually).

However, along the same lines as my above posts in this topic, explanations such as these do nothing as to answer questions such as:

Why does gravity exist? Why does the mass of one thing pull the mass of another thing towards it and vice versa. How does this work? Why does the mass do this?

Why do certain compounds work? Why is the first electron layer 2 and the second 8 for atoms? Why is this? Why not 3 and 9?

How do impossible infinities work? An atom can be broken down into its protons, neutrons, and electrons, and further into quarks and gluons, and even further into preons and eventually there are supposed to be pure energy 'strings.' However, simple mathematics says that one should always be able to break something into something smaller. It should be impossible to get to something that is 'the smallest,' simply because, what is 'half of the smallest,' or 'what things or forces hold 'the smallest' together?'

As more and more answers are found out, more and more questions arise, but this does not change the fact that science always chugs on, getting ever and ever more close to knowing everything, but never getting there (another infinite :o).

This, to me, points at the possible existence of a blind watchmaker 'supreme being.' But, as there is no possible way to prove or disprove such a thing, it cannot exist in factuality, simply in conjecture.

As for your arguments of some of the brightest minds of the day (a day that is an extremely long time ago), you do realize just how much of a negative social sphere existed for saying another anti-religion? Especially, anything that went against the Catholic faith. This reality was a steep detriment to the scientific community of the day.

Also, the argument of the 'amazingness of further discoveries in the universe' to these great minds does nothing to further the overall argument, as no scientific revelation of the day changes the fact that this whole debate of ontology centres within the realm of philosophy, a science that only changes with new ideas, not new discoveries of the universe around us.

I conclude with my restating my belief that it's impossible to determine a result to this timeless question, and if a supreme being did exist, I believe it would want things to be exactly this way anyway.

This post has been edited by DoO_Quasar: Aug 21 2011, 12:19 AM

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
RTG
post Aug 21 2011, 12:45 AM
Post #12


Field-Marshal
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 6,075

Submissions: None
Joined: 28-October 08

From: Jews Land, Israel.
Member No.: 70,364






QUOTE(DoO_Quasar @ Aug 21 2011, 08:18 AM)
I've heard the argument for how complex the universe is and just how 'impossible' it seems to be to have been created, but the simple fact of the matter is:

The universe is the way it is simply because the rules of physics would not allow for it to look like anything else.

You've heard of the 'survival of the fittest,' correct? Well, this concept can not only be applied at the biological level, but with matter at the atomic level as well. Only atoms and compounds which are stable are allowed to exist (based upon the rules of physics, any basic chemistry class teaches how these apply atomically actually).

However, along the same lines as my above posts in this topic, explanations such as these do nothing as to answer questions such as:

Why does gravity exist? Why does the mass of one thing pull the mass of another thing towards it and vice versa. How does this work? Why does the mass do this?

Why do certain compounds work? Why is the first electron layer 2 and the second 8 for atoms? Why is this? Why not 3 and 9?

How do impossible infinities work? An atom can be broken down into its protons, neutrons, and electrons, and further into quarks and gluons, and even further into preons and eventually there are supposed to be pure energy 'strings.' However, simple mathematics says that one should always be able to break something into something smaller. It should be impossible to get to something that is 'the smallest,' simply because, what is 'half of the smallest,' or 'what things or forces hold 'the smallest' together?'

As more and more answers are found out, more and more questions arise, but this does not change the fact that science always chugs on, getting ever and ever more close to knowing everything, but never getting there (another infinite :o).

This, to me, points at the possible existence of a blind watchmaker 'supreme being.' But, as there is no possible way to prove or disprove such a thing, it cannot exist in factuality, simply in conjecture.

As for your arguments of some of the brightest minds of the day (a day that is an extremely long time ago), you do realize just how much of a negative social sphere existed for saying another anti-religion? Especially, anything that went against the Catholic faith. This reality was a steep detriment to the scientific community of the day.

Also, the argument of the 'amazingness of further discoveries in the universe' to these great minds does nothing to further the overall argument, as no scientific revelation of the day changes the fact that this whole debate of ontology centres within the realm of philosophy, a science that only changes with new ideas, not new discoveries of the universe around us.

I conclude with my restating my belief that it's impossible to determine a result to this timeless question, and if a supreme being did exist, I believe it would want things to be exactly this way anyway.
*


i dont have the power to read all you wrote ,if it was in hebrew i would answer you everything here x10 fatser/smarter/stronger then anyone.
but since its in english i cant and i dont have the power to do so.

what i did is make you think in the probability way, all the rest is theory/speculation.

you did know nothing compared to the professors you are using there researchers , those professors wrote lots of things, each one of them is <<< Einstein | newton .
i have a profesor for Physics and Electronics uncle in a big US university (he was professor at age 30 after spending 3 years in the army), he studied and got his title in israel technion (like MIT for US ), he told me once during his studies that his profesor told the class : "your chances to be smarts like einstien is like winning the Lottery without sending the paper"
english is stupid language when i said your i meant in plural but there is no way to say it.
therefore there will be no way to prove if there is a god or not, and this is the point, if you know something you loses your believes even if its true.
if i know there is a god => i am not believing in him any more, i know him.
god don't want you to know him, he want you to belive in him, this is why they will never get the answer, all we have is our greatest minds, Einstein and newton, they both believe, you can choose to follow them or to follow inferior minds then them, its up to you to make your choice.

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
[DoD]Quasar
post Aug 21 2011, 01:01 AM
Post #13


GOTW Reviewer
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 14,441

Submissions: None
Joined: 12-June 08

From: St. Paul, MN, USA
Member No.: 66,835






I agree with a few things you said there, but I do urge you to take the time and read what I wrote, even if it will take you a bit longer than you may wish. Also, most of that is not 'some research' I went and found, but just thoughts and speculation I've had growing up and while living life. A lot of what I think comes from being the good skeptic I am and as I do watch something by a known researcher/professor, I sometimes spot holes in what they are saying or find exceptions to their generalizations. Often enough, the media with which they are educating whomever is watching the video is too mainstream and generalized and cut for time to not say everything in full detail, listing out all known exceptions, important details, and whatnot, so they in fact fully agree with whatever questions I would bring up, but in their little spiel they do not address everything.

Anyways, I would never follow anything just because someone supposedly very smart does something. Though this is generally a good idea and I do agree with it in general, I'm just simply not one to do that blindly. I'm not afraid to say I think pretty highly of myself (simple fact, I'm not gonna deny it, it's just a fact about my personality), and consequently I would like to believe I'm just as smart as anyone out there (knowing full well I'm not at all in many respects lol), and can make a decision for myself. However, if I were to follow a theist ('a' theist, not atheist), it would be this man: Christopher Langan who has this theory in regard to existence.

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
RTG
post Aug 21 2011, 02:30 AM
Post #14


Field-Marshal
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 6,075

Submissions: None
Joined: 28-October 08

From: Jews Land, Israel.
Member No.: 70,364






this person writes : "you can prove the existence of God, the soul and the afterlife, through mathematics"

need more?

This post has been edited by RTG: Aug 21 2011, 02:30 AM

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
[DoD]Quasar
post Aug 21 2011, 10:12 AM
Post #15


GOTW Reviewer
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 14,441

Submissions: None
Joined: 12-June 08

From: St. Paul, MN, USA
Member No.: 66,835






Although he capitalizes 'God,' he is not referring to the 'God' of Abrahamic religion. Anyways, I use his theory of the holistic approach to the universe and existence in what I wrote above. I shall quote:

QUOTE
That the 'god' is the 'existence' and the 'existence' is the 'god.' However, although this is, in fact, mathematically possible (see here), this does require some pretty janky 'rules' to be in place at the highest levels of ontology.

My belief right now is that if a supreme being does exist, he would only exist under these circumstances of which I just described. All polytheistic ideas are mathematically impossible (assuming each deity was of equal 'power' or whatever).

I also have some blatantly ugly ideas about what sort of 'personality' a supreme being would have if it did indeed exist lol. However, we'll save this sort of discussion for a different day :teehee:



User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

4 Pages  1 2 3 > » 
Reply to this topicTopic Options
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:
 




Time is now: 28th March 2024 - 07:31 AM
About Us  ·   Advertising  ·   Contact Us  ·   Terms of Use  ·   Privacy Policy