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Voobly Balance Patch 6.0 Patch is Live, Good Luck and Have Fun
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BoIt
post Apr 17 2024, 03:24 AM
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QUOTE(Mirez @ Apr 17 2024, 05:41 PM)
QUOTE(TheCountvonCount @ Apr 16 2024, 09:22 AM)
The avarage level of 1v1's ranked is like 200 rr lower than tourney games. Also the 'random map' aspect will screw over the data. Norse will have high win% on marsh, but low medit. In case you wanna use the voobly ranked data to analyse gods-strenghts, you really need to dive deep.
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But you'll have the same issue when only taking tournament games into consideration. Ultimately you'll want the game to be balanced for the average Joe that wants to play 100% Kronos on random map. Not for a Hades/Odin expert that picks Kronos on specific water maps.
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The idea that Kronos is good on water maps was heavily disproven in CL season 3 hence the buff he recieved. I really like Kronos now in 6.0. Those who haven't tried him really need to give Leto a go in certain matchups, the behemoth/satyr feel AMAZING and while the speed on the heka gigantes is only kinda 'nice' the speed on the argus is HUGE.

The thing that really hits Kronos badly is he doesn't really have a good way to deal with Zeus Centaur. I think he's playable or favoured in every other mu.

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Hisp_drako
post Apr 17 2024, 02:44 PM
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water maps, cronos, xD, medit and only medit, but chill some day medit will be deleted (for cronos or gaia having a chance of winning somewhere is unacceptable) with highlands and all the new water maps as sacred pool etc that have dissapear without no new water maps coming and with more high hunts maps having been add to the map pool.

But not only that, low hunt maps have dissapeared, even oasis is a 4 zebras 7 jiraffes always map.

The map pool suxsss. Back mines, resourses really well distributed, everything perfect no adaptability needed, boom 2 tc as a way of life.

No new maps in 5.0, no new maps in 6.0, nothing but? NERFS.

Bring a new high hunt map for living in the eternal tundra in which this admin is.

Seeing a patch without a single new map, is like seeing a paint without colour, what are they done for? whats the news? nerfing oranos? that was 90% of this project. Working wasnt an option. Age of creativity, every big nerf will be a patch.

This post has been edited by Hisp_drako: Apr 17 2024, 02:59 PM

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[DoD]Hellsravage
post Apr 17 2024, 07:26 PM
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QUOTE(Mirez @ Apr 17 2024, 03:41 AM)
QUOTE(TheCountvonCount @ Apr 16 2024, 09:22 AM)
The avarage level of 1v1's ranked is like 200 rr lower than tourney games. Also the 'random map' aspect will screw over the data. Norse will have high win% on marsh, but low medit. In case you wanna use the voobly ranked data to analyse gods-strenghts, you really need to dive deep.
*


But you'll have the same issue when only taking tournament games into consideration. Ultimately you'll want the game to be balanced for the average Joe that wants to play 100% Kronos on random map. Not for a Hades/Odin expert that picks Kronos on specific water maps.
*



That was pretty mean of you. I consider Joe to be slightly better than average

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DoD_Jollyman
post Apr 17 2024, 11:14 PM
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QUOTE(TheCountvonCount @ Apr 16 2024, 08:22 PM)
QUOTE(DoD_Jollyman @ Apr 16 2024, 07:51 AM)
QUOTE(LNC_GoldenAxe @ Apr 15 2024, 07:45 AM)
You have to balance the game according to game balance concepts (Rock<Paper<Scissors). The only time you use data form players is if you see massive abuse, even then you have to be careful what you label as abuse. For example, back in 2015 the entire community cried about Set, yet no one ever won with Set, except TheMista. The community made it seem like anyone vs Set was an instance loss and eventually the patch team nerf Set to a point of no return.

In general, this is how the balance was intended...
Age 1
Standard>Aggressive>boomer>Standard
Oranos>Kronos>Gaia>Oranos
Zeus>Possy>Hades>Zeus

Age 2
Oranos<Kronos<Gaia<Oranos

Once you destroy true balance, you'll be going in circles forever. What you'll see is that players will start switching their main and picking the civ to take advantage of your balance mistakes.
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Imo, if your goal of these patches is to find balance then you're barking up the wrong tree.

I think the purpose should be to change meta and promote new gameplay. Of course this is done by buffing/nerfing areas that were under/over performing.

When you make a small change its effects rippled across the meta, and often it can take some time for players to adjust and work out new metas. It's pretty hard to predict how some changes will affect the meta overall as well.

Actually it was 2012 Xmas tournament when Magyar made Themista look 1650 with a super clean Set style. During this time Set definitely was one of the strongest gods because he was very common on the ladder once players started copying Magyars style.

@Boit, is your data of top 10-20 only gathered in tournaments, this sounds like pretty weak data.

What's wrong with gathering all 18+ 1v1 ladder games, how would this be bad data?

You're always welcome to filter the results by elo from there to see what the differences are.
*



The avarage level of 1v1's ranked is like 200 rr lower than tourney games. Also the 'random map' aspect will screw over the data. Norse will have high win% on marsh, but low medit. In case you wanna use the voobly ranked data to analyse gods-strenghts, you really need to dive deep.
*



This is precisely why we shouldn't bury our head in the sand over data though.

You can record the data of the map, ratings, gods etc etc

So then you know how good Norse is doing on Marsh compared to medit, and then filter that again by rate to see if there's discrepancies relative to ELO. Thus you're better equipped to make suggestions on patch ideas.

"Patch 15.12.27329432 we noticed that norse was vastly underperforming on medit and have tweaked x to to help bring norses power back up on water maps"

I cant believe the argument for less data and information is being made here...

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BoIt
post Apr 18 2024, 02:06 AM
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More good data would be nice. The argument isn't less data, just that the data we have mostly isn't very good data.

I refer to the graph posted earlier where every civ is above 50% winrate because the top players don't play each other outside of tournament, or at least it is far rarer than it should be.

Give me data on top 20 players playing each other over the past year. That data would be very very useful. I don't have the knowledge to make that program to dig into voobly's api and grab all the data. :(

On top of that, players above 100 games at 1700 rating playing others at 1700 rating would also be good data. Same to for 1800, same to for 1900.

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LNC_GoldenAxe
post Apr 20 2024, 05:49 PM
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...

This post has been edited by LNC_GoldenAxe: Apr 20 2024, 11:23 PM

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LNC_GoldenAxe
post Apr 21 2024, 07:24 PM
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Was watching Kiluminati play on the map "Gold Rush" and I was speechless, what a silly map. I just hope the group of players that approved this map doesn't influence Retold. :crazyeye:


Are you guys using data from maps like this to balance the game because this map is flawed by design. Maps where you know where the resources are can't be used for balance.

This post has been edited by LNC_GoldenAxe: Apr 21 2024, 07:47 PM

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AiC_Stab
post Apr 22 2024, 03:36 AM
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QUOTE(LNC_GoldenAxe @ Apr 22 2024, 05:54 AM)
Are you guys using data from maps like this to balance the game because this map is flawed by design. Maps where you know where the resources are can't be used for balance.
*


Thats pretty much every map on the patch

This post has been edited by AiC_Stab: Apr 22 2024, 03:37 AM

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[DoD]Hellsravage
post Apr 22 2024, 07:50 AM
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QUOTE(AiC_Stab @ Apr 22 2024, 04:36 AM)
QUOTE(LNC_GoldenAxe @ Apr 22 2024, 05:54 AM)
Are you guys using data from maps like this to balance the game because this map is flawed by design. Maps where you know where the resources are can't be used for balance.
*


Thats pretty much every map on the patch
*



Unfortunately I think 6.0 has really missed the mark. I thank the current iteration of the patch team for their effort - the game deserves a fresh meta every so often soit was worth a shot. As someone on the team previously I know how hard it is to get consensus among a group and fight for small changes that actually work.

I just personally feel that 5.0 was a better patch. I’d almost recommend going back to 5.0 and then calling it a day until Retold.

Alternatively, 6.0 could be changed to only keep the nerfs to Hades, Odin and anubites which in my opinion were the easily the most common sense changes

This post has been edited by [DoD]Hellsravage: Apr 22 2024, 07:54 AM

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KoN_Meathook
post May 8 2024, 06:00 PM
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QUOTE(BoIt @ Apr 14 2024, 05:13 AM)
In my mind, the data that is important is tracking top 10/20 players games against each other. Tracking games where players have a similar rating may also be valuable.
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I understand your way of thinking. However, looking at larger sets of data always provides better evidence. If you made a patch purely for the segment you're describing (top 20) this could possibly be defended. But I suppose this patch is for all players.

I'm happy to see that patches are still being made for aot even though at first glance some of these changes lack fundamental ideology behind them, such as limiting the use of shock wave. Personally I never believed in removing possibilities from the game (exception being bolt on starting ulfsark, that poopie was busted 11)

This post has been edited by KoN_Meathook: May 8 2024, 06:02 PM



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