PureDM_IamRich |
Feb 28 2012, 07:02 PM
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#16
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Field-Marshal Group: Content Staff Posts: 7,121 AOM Replays: 356 Submissions: None Joined: 5-May 06 Member No.: 37,771 |
Would love to see bidoof play aot dm, with no AQ and microing peltast at every opportunity. What a rts god. |
DoD_SymphoniC |
Feb 28 2012, 07:02 PM
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#17
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Captain Group: Silver VIP Member Posts: 915 AOM Replays: 88 Submissions: None Joined: 8-June 05 Member No.: 17,123 |
QUOTE(HaGGiS @ Feb 28 2012, 08:01 PM) I've found myself using myrms a LOT more lately. However, I believe hops are the better choice within the first 10-15 minutes, just because that's when the big eco dump occurs. After that, I think a 1-2 (barracks) or 2-1 myrm/hop comp can be brutal. |
PureDM_IamRich |
Feb 28 2012, 07:04 PM
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#18
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Field-Marshal Group: Content Staff Posts: 7,121 AOM Replays: 356 Submissions: None Joined: 5-May 06 Member No.: 37,771 |
Hops less pop and take down buildings easier, not gonna check stats but pretty sure that's true. |
BoIt |
Feb 28 2012, 07:04 PM
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#19
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Field-Marshal Group: Content Staff Posts: 6,581 AOM Replays: 192 Submissions: None Joined: 13-January 09 From: Australia Member No.: 72,411 |
QUOTE(PD_GL @ Feb 29 2012, 12:02 AM) Would love to see bidoof play aot dm, with no AQ and microing peltast at every opportunity. What a rts god. If I played DM I'd play Isis, not Zeus... but I'd micro my chariot at every opportunity cause it's no effort. ^^ QUOTE Hops less pop and take down buildings easier, not gonna check stats but pretty sure that's true. I'm not sure that's true... I think on Nilla Myrms cost 3 pop and take buildings down quicker. On TT I think it's only 2 pop... not sure though. http://ageofempires.wikia.com/wiki/Myrmidon Also Zeus bonus is the same for all inf so I think it's all the same amount of crush bonus damage. This post has been edited by bidoof: Feb 28 2012, 07:08 PM |
DoD_SymphoniC |
Feb 28 2012, 07:16 PM
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#20
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Captain Group: Silver VIP Member Posts: 915 AOM Replays: 88 Submissions: None Joined: 8-June 05 Member No.: 17,123 |
QUOTE(bidoof @ Feb 28 2012, 08:01 PM) Microing Pelts takes about 5 seconds of your attention. Here's an exmaple of how to micro pelts. Select Pelts. Hold Shift. Right-click on all enemy archer units. Go do something else. :) QUOTE why make hopilites vs norse? when you can spam myrm? He said they cost too much. It takes the same amount of time to send hops/myrms to an enemy building, the same amount of time to pull vills to forward fort/tower/wall/flank, to micro hips against enemy archers... This is related to the point in my previous post: as a general rule (with exceptions, of course), in dm, it's more effective to destroy the enemy's buildings than it is to defeat his army. The reason? Beginning the game with high resources. It takes less time to create units than it does to build buildings. You want to deal your opponent the most damage possible, and in dm, a game of speed, that will occur when you've forced him to lose the most time and space (map control). In supremacy, defeating his army has a tremendous effect because of the time spent gathering the resources necessary for the army. In dm, the time is invested more in the build. Therefore, you generally want units that can function in a multi-purpose manner, not units that have one specific purpose. Also, regarding peltasts, the only unit which makes them worthy of micro is the gastraphetes. Tox can be killed by towers/forts with ease, as well as hips (who can also serve to raid vills, attack siege, and even buildings--i.e. multi-purpose units), so creating pelts to defeat them is senseless. Pelts do nothing to any unit except archers, do not touch siege, nor buildings. Gastraphetes, though, are so devastating, that they often require immediate attention, especially when grouped en masse (i.e. "spammed"). In this case, you are correct: pelts would be worth the micro. However, if the opponent is just using a few gasts at the back of his army, hips are infinitely better, for the reasons I stated above. I've seen your posts in other threads, and you seem to value efficiency above most things. I hope this explanation serves to demonstrate why it is more efficient to forget pelts, for the most part. |
BoIt |
Feb 28 2012, 07:21 PM
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#21
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Field-Marshal Group: Content Staff Posts: 6,581 AOM Replays: 192 Submissions: None Joined: 13-January 09 From: Australia Member No.: 72,411 |
I didn't say mass pelts ^^ As per notion of using your time to send units to kill buildings. It actually takes less time to do so. In addition, killing archers will keep your melee units alive so that they can kill buildings more efficiently therefore serving the main purpose of DM better. :P Also, you have to micro your forts/towers to kill the toxotes. And I have a feeling that you guys have never clicked on a fort and then clicked on a toxote. Correct me if I'm wrong. Furthermore (I really should read everything before posting) in DM where towers are massed cavalry are probably the worst unit you can make because upgraded towers (Crens, Guard/Ballista towers) rip through Cav faster than anything in the game. :) This post has been edited by bidoof: Feb 28 2012, 07:23 PM |
DoD_SymphoniC |
Feb 28 2012, 07:26 PM
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#22
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Captain Group: Silver VIP Member Posts: 915 AOM Replays: 88 Submissions: None Joined: 8-June 05 Member No.: 17,123 |
QUOTE(bidoof @ Feb 28 2012, 08:21 PM) I didn't say mass pelts ^^ As per notion of using your time to send units to kill buildings. It actually takes less time to do so. In addition, killing archers will keep your melee units alive so that they can kill buildings more efficiently therefore serving the main purpose of DM better. :P You're right on both accounts there--it takes less time to send units to kill buildings, and killing archers quickly is effective. The main difference between dm and sup, though, is that the (non-gast) archers are taken care of by tower/fort spam. You don't need to micro towers/forts against tox. Especially (ESPECIALLY) with the amount of towers/forts that are used in dm. Interestingly enough, Naka and I had this discussion before he finalized the guide, and I proposed putting pelts in for this specific circumstance :) In low-very low numbers, they can be effective and well worth the investment. This post has been edited by Tarnation_: Feb 28 2012, 07:28 PM |
BoIt |
Feb 28 2012, 07:29 PM
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#23
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Field-Marshal Group: Content Staff Posts: 6,581 AOM Replays: 192 Submissions: None Joined: 13-January 09 From: Australia Member No.: 72,411 |
So we agree that you should make some pelts and micro the poopie out of them if you have the time? :) And you do have to micro towers/forts as if they send in their siege first that is the unit which will be prioritized to attack and thus your towers/forts will do no damage (almost no damage) This post has been edited by bidoof: Feb 28 2012, 07:30 PM |
Lebkuchen_mann |
Feb 28 2012, 07:29 PM
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#24
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Field-Marshal Group: Staff Alumni Posts: 10,579 AOM Replays: 152 Submissions: None Joined: 21-September 08 Member No.: 69,515 |
idk why but when i shift click micro archers.... it doesn't work :P. they either stop after killing the first unit, or they walk forwards where i clicked a unit instead of killing hte unit -_- |
BoIt |
Feb 28 2012, 07:32 PM
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#25
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Field-Marshal Group: Content Staff Posts: 6,581 AOM Replays: 192 Submissions: None Joined: 13-January 09 From: Australia Member No.: 72,411 |
If a unit you shift clicked on is killed before the archers fire at it then your archers will walk forward. Theoretically the only units attacking your enemy archers should be the units you have shift-clicked with. :) Ofc it depends on the situation... |
DoD_Nakamura |
Feb 28 2012, 07:32 PM
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#26
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Field-Marshal Group: Members Posts: 8,992 AOM Replays: 918 Submissions: None Joined: 24-February 11 From: Hungary Member No.: 107,079 Gamertag: Nakamuray14 |
QUOTE(Lebkuchen_mann @ Feb 29 2012, 01:29 AM) idk why but when i shift click micro archers.... it doesn't work :P. they either stop after killing the first unit, or they walk forwards where i clicked a unit instead of killing hte unit -_- Yes. No peltasts please. When enemy archers are in range, the enemy close range units will kill the peltasts. TOTALLY not worth the retreat micro. |
DoD_SymphoniC |
Feb 28 2012, 07:32 PM
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#27
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Captain Group: Silver VIP Member Posts: 915 AOM Replays: 88 Submissions: None Joined: 8-June 05 Member No.: 17,123 |
QUOTE(bidoof @ Feb 28 2012, 08:29 PM) So we agree that you should make some pelts and micro the poopie out of them if you have the time? :) And you do have to micro towers/forts as if they send in their siege first that is the unit which will be prioritized to attack and thus your towers/forts will do no damage (almost no damage) As a general rule, no. General rules always have exceptions. Here, we have one: yes, there are times when you can/should put a few out there and micro them. Basically, when they are used, it should be not as an action, but a reaction. Response, not initiation. Then, yes, micro like your fingers depend upon it. |
BoIt |
Feb 28 2012, 07:36 PM
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#28
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Field-Marshal Group: Content Staff Posts: 6,581 AOM Replays: 192 Submissions: None Joined: 13-January 09 From: Australia Member No.: 72,411 |
If we recall Naka said never make pelts. We've established that it's because he doesn't want to micro because it's 'not worth the micro' or whatever he said. When really you should be building pelts when it is necessary to build pelts and only build enough for the purpose that they need to fulfill. Now fix up your guide Naka!!! >:-( |
DoD_Nakamura |
Feb 28 2012, 07:40 PM
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#29
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Field-Marshal Group: Members Posts: 8,992 AOM Replays: 918 Submissions: None Joined: 24-February 11 From: Hungary Member No.: 107,079 Gamertag: Nakamuray14 |
??? Seriously, you are not listening. The next worst thing to fighting with villagers is making peltasts as a last effort to defend yourself. I'm done with this discussion, you're not getting the point. You'll need other units for other tasks more. An anti archer is not going to help you in a close-to-death situation. Get that into your head. And now let's talk about other things, and not the role of the weakest unit in the zeus army. |
BoIt |
Feb 28 2012, 07:46 PM
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#30
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Field-Marshal Group: Content Staff Posts: 6,581 AOM Replays: 192 Submissions: None Joined: 13-January 09 From: Australia Member No.: 72,411 |
I think you misundertand. Peltasts are one of the most powerful units in a Greek army: in special circumstances (NOT NEAR DEATH SITUATIONS). If you neglect to use them then you are missing out on that advantage of Greek. If I give you a very, very, very basic example; In the early game before all of your siege and towers and forts are set up. You have a skirmish and you both lose all your hoplites. Naturally what is going to happen is that you are now going to have a 1 hoplite: 3 toxote army ratio. So why not make it 1 hoplite: 2 toxote: 1 peltast ratio. Kill all enemy toxotes because your pelts are tough units and then have hoplite left over to kill buildings. :D This post has been edited by bidoof: Feb 28 2012, 07:49 PM |
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