Welcome Guest ( Log In  ·  Register)



5 Pages < 1 2 3 4 > »  
Reply to this topicStart Poll
My 1900+ Zeus guide, all my knowledge - 4200 words
[ Standard ] · Linear+
You...
 
found it fantastic, and recommend it to everyone [ 11 ] ** [35.48%]
found it useful, some parts were inefficient [ 7 ] ** [22.58%]
felt some concepts were wrong [ 4 ] ** [12.90%]
felt physical pain at certain parts [ 3 ] ** [9.68%]
intend to stay uninformed/ tl dr [ 6 ] ** [19.35%]
Total Votes: 31
Guests cannot vote 
PureDM_IamRich
post Feb 28 2012, 07:02 PM
Post #16


Field-Marshal
Group Icon

Group: Content Staff
Posts: 7,121
AOM Replays: 356
Submissions: None
Joined: 5-May 06

Member No.: 37,771






Would love to see bidoof play aot dm, with no AQ and microing peltast at every opportunity. What a rts god.

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
DoD_SymphoniC
post Feb 28 2012, 07:02 PM
Post #17


Captain
Group Icon

Group: Silver VIP Member
Posts: 915
AOM Replays: 88
Submissions: None
Joined: 8-June 05

Member No.: 17,123






QUOTE(HaGGiS @ Feb 28 2012, 08:01 PM)
why make hopilites vs norse? when you can spam myrm?
*



I've found myself using myrms a LOT more lately. However, I believe hops are the better choice within the first 10-15 minutes, just because that's when the big eco dump occurs. After that, I think a 1-2 (barracks) or 2-1 myrm/hop comp can be brutal.

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
PureDM_IamRich
post Feb 28 2012, 07:04 PM
Post #18


Field-Marshal
Group Icon

Group: Content Staff
Posts: 7,121
AOM Replays: 356
Submissions: None
Joined: 5-May 06

Member No.: 37,771






Hops less pop and take down buildings easier, not gonna check stats but pretty sure that's true.

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
BoIt
post Feb 28 2012, 07:04 PM
Post #19


Field-Marshal
Group Icon

Group: Content Staff
Posts: 6,581
AOM Replays: 192
Submissions: None
Joined: 13-January 09

From: Australia
Member No.: 72,411






QUOTE(PD_GL @ Feb 29 2012, 12:02 AM)
Would love to see bidoof play aot dm, with no AQ and microing peltast at every opportunity. What a rts god.
*



If I played DM I'd play Isis, not Zeus... but I'd micro my chariot at every opportunity cause it's no effort. ^^

QUOTE
Hops less pop and take down buildings easier, not gonna check stats but pretty sure that's true.


I'm not sure that's true... I think on Nilla Myrms cost 3 pop and take buildings down quicker. On TT I think it's only 2 pop... not sure though.

http://ageofempires.wikia.com/wiki/Myrmidon

Also Zeus bonus is the same for all inf so I think it's all the same amount of crush bonus damage.

This post has been edited by bidoof: Feb 28 2012, 07:08 PM

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
DoD_SymphoniC
post Feb 28 2012, 07:16 PM
Post #20


Captain
Group Icon

Group: Silver VIP Member
Posts: 915
AOM Replays: 88
Submissions: None
Joined: 8-June 05

Member No.: 17,123






QUOTE(bidoof @ Feb 28 2012, 08:01 PM)
Microing Pelts takes about 5 seconds of your attention.

Here's an exmaple of how to micro pelts.
Select Pelts.
Hold Shift.
Right-click on all enemy archer units.

Go do something else. :)

QUOTE
why make hopilites vs norse? when you can spam myrm?


He said they cost too much.
*



It takes the same amount of time to send hops/myrms to an enemy building, the same amount of time to pull vills to forward fort/tower/wall/flank, to micro hips against enemy archers...

This is related to the point in my previous post: as a general rule (with exceptions, of course), in dm, it's more effective to destroy the enemy's buildings than it is to defeat his army. The reason? Beginning the game with high resources. It takes less time to create units than it does to build buildings. You want to deal your opponent the most damage possible, and in dm, a game of speed, that will occur when you've forced him to lose the most time and space (map control). In supremacy, defeating his army has a tremendous effect because of the time spent gathering the resources necessary for the army. In dm, the time is invested more in the build. Therefore, you generally want units that can function in a multi-purpose manner, not units that have one specific purpose.

Also, regarding peltasts, the only unit which makes them worthy of micro is the gastraphetes. Tox can be killed by towers/forts with ease, as well as hips (who can also serve to raid vills, attack siege, and even buildings--i.e. multi-purpose units), so creating pelts to defeat them is senseless. Pelts do nothing to any unit except archers, do not touch siege, nor buildings. Gastraphetes, though, are so devastating, that they often require immediate attention, especially when grouped en masse (i.e. "spammed"). In this case, you are correct: pelts would be worth the micro. However, if the opponent is just using a few gasts at the back of his army, hips are infinitely better, for the reasons I stated above.

I've seen your posts in other threads, and you seem to value efficiency above most things. I hope this explanation serves to demonstrate why it is more efficient to forget pelts, for the most part.

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
BoIt
post Feb 28 2012, 07:21 PM
Post #21


Field-Marshal
Group Icon

Group: Content Staff
Posts: 6,581
AOM Replays: 192
Submissions: None
Joined: 13-January 09

From: Australia
Member No.: 72,411






I didn't say mass pelts ^^

As per notion of using your time to send units to kill buildings. It actually takes less time to do so. In addition, killing archers will keep your melee units alive so that they can kill buildings more efficiently therefore serving the main purpose of DM better. :P

Also, you have to micro your forts/towers to kill the toxotes. And I have a feeling that you guys have never clicked on a fort and then clicked on a toxote. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Furthermore (I really should read everything before posting) in DM where towers are massed cavalry are probably the worst unit you can make because upgraded towers (Crens, Guard/Ballista towers) rip through Cav faster than anything in the game. :)

This post has been edited by bidoof: Feb 28 2012, 07:23 PM

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
DoD_SymphoniC
post Feb 28 2012, 07:26 PM
Post #22


Captain
Group Icon

Group: Silver VIP Member
Posts: 915
AOM Replays: 88
Submissions: None
Joined: 8-June 05

Member No.: 17,123






QUOTE(bidoof @ Feb 28 2012, 08:21 PM)
I didn't say mass pelts ^^

As per notion of using your time to send units to kill buildings. It actually takes less time to do so. In addition, killing archers will keep your melee units alive so that they can kill buildings more efficiently therefore serving the main purpose of DM better. :P
*



You're right on both accounts there--it takes less time to send units to kill buildings, and killing archers quickly is effective. The main difference between dm and sup, though, is that the (non-gast) archers are taken care of by tower/fort spam.

You don't need to micro towers/forts against tox. Especially (ESPECIALLY) with the amount of towers/forts that are used in dm.

Interestingly enough, Naka and I had this discussion before he finalized the guide, and I proposed putting pelts in for this specific circumstance :) In low-very low numbers, they can be effective and well worth the investment.

This post has been edited by Tarnation_: Feb 28 2012, 07:28 PM

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
BoIt
post Feb 28 2012, 07:29 PM
Post #23


Field-Marshal
Group Icon

Group: Content Staff
Posts: 6,581
AOM Replays: 192
Submissions: None
Joined: 13-January 09

From: Australia
Member No.: 72,411






So we agree that you should make some pelts and micro the poopie out of them if you have the time? :)

And you do have to micro towers/forts as if they send in their siege first that is the unit which will be prioritized to attack and thus your towers/forts will do no damage (almost no damage)

This post has been edited by bidoof: Feb 28 2012, 07:30 PM

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Lebkuchen_mann
post Feb 28 2012, 07:29 PM
Post #24


Field-Marshal
Group Icon

Group: Staff Alumni
Posts: 10,579
AOM Replays: 152
Submissions: None
Joined: 21-September 08

Member No.: 69,515






idk why but when i shift click micro archers.... it doesn't work :P. they either stop after killing the first unit, or they walk forwards where i clicked a unit instead of killing hte unit -_-

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
BoIt
post Feb 28 2012, 07:32 PM
Post #25


Field-Marshal
Group Icon

Group: Content Staff
Posts: 6,581
AOM Replays: 192
Submissions: None
Joined: 13-January 09

From: Australia
Member No.: 72,411






If a unit you shift clicked on is killed before the archers fire at it then your archers will walk forward. Theoretically the only units attacking your enemy archers should be the units you have shift-clicked with. :)

Ofc it depends on the situation...

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
DoD_Nakamura
post Feb 28 2012, 07:32 PM
Post #26


Field-Marshal
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 8,992
AOM Replays: 918
Submissions: None
Joined: 24-February 11

From: Hungary
Member No.: 107,079

Gamertag: Nakamuray14





QUOTE(Lebkuchen_mann @ Feb 29 2012, 01:29 AM)
idk why but when i shift click micro archers.... it doesn't work :P. they either stop after killing the first unit, or they walk forwards where i clicked a unit instead of killing hte unit -_-
*


Yes.
No peltasts please. When enemy archers are in range, the enemy close range units will kill the peltasts.
TOTALLY not worth the retreat micro.

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
DoD_SymphoniC
post Feb 28 2012, 07:32 PM
Post #27


Captain
Group Icon

Group: Silver VIP Member
Posts: 915
AOM Replays: 88
Submissions: None
Joined: 8-June 05

Member No.: 17,123






QUOTE(bidoof @ Feb 28 2012, 08:29 PM)
So we agree that you should make some pelts and micro the poopie out of them if you have the time? :)

And you do have to micro towers/forts as if they send in their siege first that is the unit which will be prioritized to attack and thus your towers/forts will do no damage (almost no damage)
*



As a general rule, no. General rules always have exceptions. Here, we have one: yes, there are times when you can/should put a few out there and micro them. Basically, when they are used, it should be not as an action, but a reaction. Response, not initiation. Then, yes, micro like your fingers depend upon it.

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
BoIt
post Feb 28 2012, 07:36 PM
Post #28


Field-Marshal
Group Icon

Group: Content Staff
Posts: 6,581
AOM Replays: 192
Submissions: None
Joined: 13-January 09

From: Australia
Member No.: 72,411






If we recall Naka said never make pelts. We've established that it's because he doesn't want to micro because it's 'not worth the micro' or whatever he said.

When really you should be building pelts when it is necessary to build pelts and only build enough for the purpose that they need to fulfill. Now fix up your guide Naka!!! >:-(

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
DoD_Nakamura
post Feb 28 2012, 07:40 PM
Post #29


Field-Marshal
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 8,992
AOM Replays: 918
Submissions: None
Joined: 24-February 11

From: Hungary
Member No.: 107,079

Gamertag: Nakamuray14





???
Seriously, you are not listening. The next worst thing to fighting with villagers is making peltasts as a last effort to defend yourself.
I'm done with this discussion, you're not getting the point. You'll need other units for other tasks more. An anti archer is not going to help you in a close-to-death situation.
Get that into your head.
And now let's talk about other things, and not the role of the weakest unit in the zeus army.

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
BoIt
post Feb 28 2012, 07:46 PM
Post #30


Field-Marshal
Group Icon

Group: Content Staff
Posts: 6,581
AOM Replays: 192
Submissions: None
Joined: 13-January 09

From: Australia
Member No.: 72,411






I think you misundertand. Peltasts are one of the most powerful units in a Greek army: in special circumstances (NOT NEAR DEATH SITUATIONS). If you neglect to use them then you are missing out on that advantage of Greek.

If I give you a very, very, very basic example;

In the early game before all of your siege and towers and forts are set up. You have a skirmish and you both lose all your hoplites. Naturally what is going to happen is that you are now going to have a 1 hoplite: 3 toxote army ratio. So why not make it 1 hoplite: 2 toxote: 1 peltast ratio. Kill all enemy toxotes because your pelts are tough units and then have hoplite left over to kill buildings. :D

This post has been edited by bidoof: Feb 28 2012, 07:49 PM



User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

5 Pages < 1 2 3 4 > » 
Reply to this topicTopic Options
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:
 




Time is now: 29th March 2024 - 03:40 AM
About Us  ·   Advertising  ·   Contact Us  ·   Terms of Use  ·   Privacy Policy