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String of Shootings in US
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BadToThe_Bone
post Feb 15 2008, 08:34 AM
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What in thee HELL is going on here??

I wake up today, and yet ANOTHER shooting/suicide, this time at another college?

Six dead and 16 wounded. Oh my Lord this is getting ridiculous. I don't have time to look up all the other random shootings just this year in the US, but I know it seems like every other day, another one happens. I think there was even a mother who killed like four of her kids last week, and a few more... can't remember. But it's an awful lot lately, and seems like shooting happened like 5-6 times already this year... alone. Terrible.

This from USA Today in the article, but I haven't looked them up: "The shooting was the fourth at a U.S. school within a week" ... WTF?

VIP forum kinda died recently, so I just thought I would throw this in before heading out today... Will discuss more about it when I get some time...

BUT... I'm a strong supporter of gun laws... I think the gun laws for citizens in necessary, and even with all these shootings, don't think it should be outlawed.

Should we allow licensed teachers to carry guns? Store owners? Business owners who run small companies? Hell, maybe postal workers? I know that one sounds strange, since it started long ago in a post office, hence the term 'going postal'.... But at least these people would be able to protect themselves, or blast some freak before he/she kills more people.

What do you gentlemen think? Even in your own countries, which I know doesn't happen as much, but don't you people think others should be able to protect themselves?? Because we all know criminals will get guns whether they are outlawed or not... So why not let law abiding citizens carry them in the open to protect others?

This post has been edited by BadToThe_Bone: Feb 15 2008, 08:40 AM

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Roark
post Feb 15 2008, 09:44 AM
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Generally these types of shootings happen in places with gun control laws. I remember in the last gun topic I pointed out that the Virginia Tech shootings were carried out in a "gun-free zone."

Since our very constitution allows us to buy and carry guns (and the 2nd amendment won't be repealed for a LONG time), I think it's very dangerous when institutions remove the ability of people to protect themselves. Teachers and administrators need to be able to protect their students. I remember citing a couple examples in the last topic of a vice principal on one occasion and a teacher on another occasion both stopping a school shooting before it got going. In a society where firearms are liberal, guns can save lives; banning them only stops the people who are following the law anyway.

And these things always happen in strings... people who hate their lives see other people do it on the news and think "hey I can be on the news too." It's very unfortunate, but that's the way it works.

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KS_Rockstar
post Feb 15 2008, 11:10 AM
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Ok, I'm a gun owner. I've had one since I was a kid. Going shooting with my father is one of the great memories I have. I believe in the second amendment.

That being said, more guns are not going to solve the problem. There is a reason that in the Wild West they started passing "no guns in town laws". Currently a gun in the home is 22% more likely to hurt or kill a loved one than it is to protect your house.

How often do you hear about a guy pulling his gun from the night stand and staving off an armed invasion of his house? Never, because it never happens (except maybe in the movies). How often do you hear about kids shooting their friends accidentally while they where showing them their fathers gun, all the time. How about stressed out adolescents going postal at college, all the time. How about postal workers going postal, et, et, et.

The fact is that as a society we need a few rules. Now I'm a firm believer in individual’s rights. I don't want the government telling me what I can and cannot do. However, I don’t think limiting the ownership of guns to certain people is infringing on my rights.

You need a driver’s license to drive a car. You have to be a certain age and have passed a written and practical test. You have to have insurance and you have to abide by certain rules. We even limit the type of vehicle you can drive (for example no open wheel race cars on the road, no monster trucks, et.). I actually thin the rules for this should be stricter. I think the legal driving age should be 18 (though you could get a special exception for say driving farm equipment for example). I think the practical and written test should be much tougher. And most importantly I think the penalty for breaking the rules should be much stricter.

I think a stricter set of criteria for gun ownership would also help not hurt.

I really hate the, "don’t mess with the Constitution" bull siht I hear when people talk about this. When they wrote the Constitution and the amendments the world was a different place. There is no doubt in my mind that if the amazing fire power we have now was available back then, there would have been a few restrictions placed on the second amendment. I don't think there was any great risk of a college kid going on a rampage with a musket in 1791 and there weren’t many liquor stores held up with blunder busters.


rs.........

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larky
post Feb 15 2008, 11:36 AM
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Well you know my opinion on this. Guns kills people. They don't protect - they can only kill.

And contrary to popular belief, if you outlaw guns, you make it harder for criminals to get hold of guns, resulting in less gun crime. People who wouldn't be able to get hold of a gun in other countries (it isn't easy to get hold of a piece). By making it impossible to simply go to a shop and buy a gun, you cut out a lot of people who aren't planning to kill someone, and you cut out the people who can't get a gun.

The right to bear arms was introduced so that the people could overthrow a government if it it no longer represented the views of the people. Not to shoot burglars.

(IMG:http://www.gun-control-network.org/International.gif)
(extremely biased website i know, but the pic says a lot)

It's no surprise that you're getting shot to pieces tbh. That's what happens when you legalise a weapon that can kill people so easily with relatively little effort or motivation/confidence from the would be killer.

And that's why with the UK's strict gun laws, the death rate is ~0.1 per 100,000: and the US is way above 10.

This post has been edited by Larkyboof: Feb 15 2008, 11:52 AM

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sKiLLfrEE
post Feb 16 2008, 05:13 AM
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I understand and agree (somehow) with both parties....those who second the US 2nd amandment and those who want to abolish it.

Although this graph looks like it is very conclusive it still doesnt answer the question WHY there are so many IFDs in the USA. The reason can not be reduced to the sole fact that so many american households own firearms. This might be a part of the reason but when you compare the US to switzerland in this graph you need to wonder what else causes the high IFD ratio in the US.

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KS_Rockstar
post Feb 16 2008, 12:07 PM
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There are a bunch of reasons but clearly the largest by a mile is the ammount of weapons available.

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krags
post Feb 23 2008, 03:40 AM
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I don't agree:

Lynn Stuter writing for NewsWithViews.com points out that while the media keeps focusing on guns, the real issue is that these mood altering drugs keep driving subjects to suicide and killings. "Six are dead including the shooter -- a 27 year old man; a former student at NIU who, like so many before him, was a 'nice young man' who had gone off his meds and started acting erratic. The talking heads are at it again. News anchor after news anchor, rehash after rehash, focuses on guns on campus; talking head after talking head makes the preposterous and unsubstantiated claim that more guns means more violence.

"There is one commonality in all of these shootings that, while mentioned, is lost in the subterfuge focusing on guns... What was to come out in the days following this incident was that the young man had recently been on mind-altering anti-depressants. Here we go again. Kip Kinkel, Eric Harris, Dylan Klebold, the Virginia Tech shooter, all on mind-altering prescription anti-depressants, as was the Northern Illinois University shooter; as have been a long list of shooters who have killed a multitude of others before killing themselves or surrendering as authorities converged."

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KS_Rockstar
post Feb 23 2008, 06:50 AM
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IMO, persciption drugs are worse than street drugs because we legatimize them. And while I'm sure a few shootings have to do with drug use, there are plenty. that had nothing to do with them.


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krags
post Feb 25 2008, 12:55 PM
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I'm not claiming that they are all due to mind-altering drugs. It does seem that an inordinately high percentage of the young school shooters have used these drugs. I work with kids who are using/have used these drugs and it seems there is a disconnect from reality. Sure it mellows them out and enables them to sit still in class but there are a small percentage who suffer terrible side effects.

Very interesting topic.

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larky
post Feb 25 2008, 01:27 PM
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the "mood altering" drugs wouldn't cause deaths or anywhere near as many deaths if the users didn't have easy access to guns.

War on drugs doesn't help anyone anyway.

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Roark
post Feb 25 2008, 02:22 PM
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QUOTE
Currently a gun in the home is 22% more likely to hurt or kill a loved one than it is to protect your house.

I'd like to know the source for that statistic, because I think it misleads considerably. For example, the dominant effect of allowing guns is preventative. Violent crime rates go way down when criminals weigh the risk that their victims may be armed. In this case, the gun is never "used" but prevents the crime nonetheless. It has also been shown that defensive gun uses are extremely underreported, mainly because when the gun does it's job, there's no crime to report.

A gun doesn't have to shoot a criminal in order for it to have had a positive societal effect.

Everyone who finds these topics interesting should read "More Guns Less Crime" by John Lott Jr, it's a phenomenal book and the statistical depth the author achieves is quite intimidating. He actually points out some very interesting phenomena of gun control laws, such as substitution effects. Generally non-violent and non-personal crime rates (like fraud) go up as criminals find safer ways to take people's money/posessions. Crime rates in towns bordering low-gun-control areas also go up, as the criminals move to where its safer to do "business." It's a very interesting and thorough analysis of every single county in the US and the effects of their different levels of gun control.

Larky, it is more helpful to argue here in the frame of reference of the US. We permit guns in our constitution, and that permission is not going anywhere for a long time. While I am fascinated by other country's laws on the matter (some work, some don't), our country and culture are quite different. We have the options of more control or less control, but an outright ban is just a hypothetical ideal that isn't an option.

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larky
post Feb 25 2008, 03:38 PM
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I'm not telling you what i think will be feasable. I don't know what "isn't an option" in the US - though i don't know what makes you so different from every other developed nation that you have to have gun. I'm just telling you what is the best thing (in my opinion) to happen.

There are many statistically 'invisible' positives to gun use, but there are also similarly many invisible negatives. If easy access to guns deters violent gun crime, then i wonder why the gun-related offenses are so high

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Roark
post Feb 25 2008, 04:19 PM
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QUOTE
i don't know what makes you so different from every other developed nation that you have to have gun

I'm really getting sick of your "every other developed nation" generalizations. What about Finland? Are they developed enough for you? Guns are very common there (12% of Finns own at least one gun), and their murder rate per capita is very similar to the UK's. There are so many issues, cultural, geographical, and historical, that affect these statistics across different countries. That's why when we consider US domestic gun policy, it's best to compare various solutions adopted in various regions of the US and see what are the most effective.

You're also assuming a control of supply, something that's not too hard in England on your little Island. But I'd like to see you manage a universal gun ban in a country as big and diverse as the US, with huge borders with Canada/Mexico (guns aplenty in both countries). It's a logistical nightmare even if you can get across the deeply rooted cultural and political barriers.

QUOTE
If easy access to guns deters violent gun crime, then i wonder why the gun-related offenses are so high

So high compared to what? To Britain? It's not a fair comparison (see above). In the US, violent crime is universally higher in areas with more restrictive gun laws than places with less restrictive gun laws, ceteris paribus. That tells me that allowing people firearm protection deters crime. It's a simple effect to understand. As I said, guns are going nowhere for the next 100 years in the US. That's a political and cultural reality that maybe you don't understand, but you have to accept it when discussing different firearm control options.

This post has been edited by Roark: Feb 25 2008, 04:32 PM

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KS_Rockstar
post Feb 26 2008, 03:23 AM
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for the sake of making this argument better, we should, on both sides of the argument, stay away from corolations as they are many and easily abused.

i also agree, good topic.

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larky
post Feb 26 2008, 11:34 AM
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QUOTE(KS_Rockstar @ Feb 26 2008, 09:23 AM)
for the sake of making this argument better, we should, on both sides of the argument, stay away from corolations as they are many and easily abused.
*

I disagree. Correlation is different from causation indeed, but this is the kind of topic where you need to discuss statistics or no-on will really be able to prove anything.

Roark okay I take the statement back. most developed nations.

About finland, you are very sneaky with your statistics there as you say murder per capita - not guns in particular but all types of murder which is misleading. Look at the graph I posted earlier... you are right that guns are common there (~25% of households), but their firearm deaths per 100,000 is much greater than the UK's. 5 compared to less than 0.5.

It wouldn't be as easy to enforce more anti-gun laws in the US, but I think it is better than just giving up and letting whoever wants a weapon, have one. we don't say "ah we have massive borders, stopping terrorists is a logistical nightmare". Guns kill more innocent people than terrorists in the US btw. It's a massive problem over there.

There will almost definitely be guns in the US for a long time, because nearly everyone lives under the belief that the guns are actually helping crime, and they are accepted in society.



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