• RTS Part of Sanctuary Networks

Welcome Guest ( Log In  ·  Register)



3 Pages < 1 2 3 
Reply to this topicStart Poll
Israel and Gaza
Outline · [ Standard ] · Linear+
IamMagic
post Aug 14 2014, 07:54 PM
Post #31


Lieutenant-General
Group Icon

Group: AoT Expert
Posts: 3,951
AOE3 Replays: 5
Submissions: None
Joined: 6-December 03

Member No.: 1,689






I think after that post we can all confirm that you have a very serious comprehension problem.

QUOTE
When you kill an innocent bystander in self defense, the guy who attempted to murder you will get charged for the killing of the innocent bystander if you can prove it. Otherwise, you will. Either way, someone is getting charged. You know why? Because killing innocent people is WRONG


hmm, no poopie? find a single post in this entire thread where I've said that killing innocent people is ok.

QUOTE
Your example again compares uncomparable things. What is the difference between your example and war?


I know your stupid but at least try to pretend your not, my examples are there to show you a distinction between a genocide and collateral damage. they are not there to directly contrast that with the reality of the conflict in discussion, however anyone who actually claims to be educated like yourself wouldn't really have a difficult time drawing a contrast between those examples.

QUOTE
In the Israel - Palestinian conflict, you don't know who to charge for the killing of innocent people. Is it Palestinians for allegedly being the cause of bombings or is it Israel for doing the bombings?


that's why we have the geneva convention which both israel and palestine are apart of and the international court of justice in which members of the united nations must adhere to (israel being one of them)

QUOTE
So nations, typically the West, but I guess everyone chooses to charge either no one when they are doing it which they label 'collateral damage', or to incorrectly blame one party for these killings which they then call 'genocide'. This is obviously nothing but utter bullpoopie, an artificial difference made for plain convenience but it works as you are the living proof of it.


do you understand the meaning of a genocide? if israel drops a bomb on a millitary target and killed a few innocent bystanders that is not a genocide. (im not saying its ok, it's just an example) however if you drop white phosphorus on civilian populations and shoot unarmed children on a beach that's more in line with a genocide, it violates treaty's, laws and agreements internationally. how is this so difficult for you to understand? not to mention the substance used on civilian populations is considered a war crime.

(disclaimer for retards (j4): im not saying dropping bombs is ok, it's just an example of a distinction between the two)

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
ArmyCore
post Aug 14 2014, 09:56 PM
Post #32


Field-Marshal
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 8,039
AOE3 Replays: 0
Submissions: None
Joined: 4-August 08

Member No.: 68,380






An off the books discussion I've been having with AjaxTrojan, I invite him to participate in the VIP section, I don't believe the mods should stop him, he's clearly informed and here to debate.

QUOTE
QUOTE
(Ajax) If Hamas were to move its rocket launchers and soldiers into the desert , (the only place in the gaza strip that is not densely populated with civilians) Israeli jets would win the entire war in minutes. Literally. Hamas believes that it is acting in the greater good by resisting and therefore preventing the same situation that is in the west bank. It was because the people of gaza resisted so strongly that Israel withdrew from the gaza strip a long time ago, as appose to the people of the west bank that are trying diplomacy instead. The people of gaza see all the Injustices that Israel is committing in the West bank such as the expansion of illegal settlements and so rightly or wrongly Hamas believes it is sparing the people of Gaza from an even worse situation that Gaza is in now.

Btw I really wish I could comment in the thread, I like to share all the different perspectives that people/ groups have on things rather than just take one side or the other. Im not saying that's what your doing though. The majority of people seem to do that unfortunately.


(AC) Yes I have no doubt that Hamas believes that they're acting in the greater good by fighting in the way that they are, however, it's not something I can condone, and I think it leads to unnecessary civilian deaths. Furthermore, it allows the Israelis to demonize all Gazans because it becomes impossible to tell who is benign and who is dangerous, and of course the logical heuristic at this point is to assume they are all dangerous. Thus, Israelis are able to rationalize violence against civilian targets regardless of whether Hamas is active in the area at all.

Furthermore, Gaza is so densely populated that I don't think a fear of Israeli settlements is reasonable. Clearly the best course of action for Gaza, for the moment, is to behave peaceably and amicably, and hope that Israeli people pressure their government to relinquish their domination and oppression.

The fact is that the Israelis are so powerful when compared to Gaza that any resistance is entirely futile and will only cause death and despair. Sometimes you need to recognize military defeat, and attempt to get what you want through other means.



QUOTE
(Ajax) Well it appears as though that is not the case, with so many Israeli soldiers dead and even after the massive assault on gaza hamas still has the capability to fire more rockets into Israel. It is offcourse not reasonable to think that hamas has any chance of destroying Israel but that is not what this war is about. The situation in gaza has been this way for far to long and while it has become even worse in the last month, death and despair is nothing new to the people of gaza.


(AC) The casualty rate thus far is 64 Israelis and over 2000 Palestinians. Furthermore, the war is completely non-linear (that is not between belligerents of vaguely equal strength, capabilities, or strategies). I don't think that "because things are bad", that is an excuse to make things worse (the same as how I wouldn't say "there's already lots of vandalism on the train, might as well vandalize"). I don't think we can trivialize lives simply because so many have already been lost: 1 life lost following 1 is equal to 1 life lost following 999. It's a cognitive bias commonly called the "gamblers fallacy", wherein someone will "double down" the further in the hole he gets, the same applies here (both to your logic, and what I suspect many of the Gazans think too), what's another life when 2000 are already lost? But this is a logical fallacy, the result of an incorrect psychological heuristic.

QUOTE
(Ajax) More critically its nothing new to the people of the West Bank either. The Illegal settlements were only one example of many Injustices that are being committed in the West Bank, there is also the matter of SWAT teams conducting raids on thousands of homes in the night time, arresting children with out any real cause to question them for days with out the presence of their parents. Many thousands of Palestinians are being taken prisoner and never charged, just held indefinitely. Beatings of innocent people like the one that was caught on tape with the Palestinian American teenager on the ground being beaten by soldiers. 

The people of gaza see what is happening in the West bank which has chosen the diplomatic option with Israel and they see that nothing has come of it. Hamas has chosen the military option instead and at the very least it is making people realize endless suffering of an oppressed people has consequences. you might say that is really obvious anyway but then looking at Israel's  policies - Apparently its not. While peace and diplomacy might spare the international community from seeing the horrible destruction of life, the images, statistics and so on , it so far has not spared the people of the West bank from great suffering and indeed neither has it shielded them from the death and despair that's happening not only their home, the West Bank but Gaza as well. It is easy to condemn the options that people take but to understand what options there are to achieve what is needed, you must look at what alternatives there are and have those alternatives worked previously. Diplomacy is not working for the people of the West Bank so why should it work for the people of Gaza. Perhaps if you were in the same situation you would be wondering why live at all? Death is ugly and terrible but I suppose the real question is why do we wait for this ugliness and terribleness to happen before we actually pay attention to the suffering which this loss of life is a product of. More to the point, why do lives only matter when they have been lost. Sure we don't like death, but in this case does it actually equate to loss of living, is their any real ''living'' going on in gaza at all (either now or in the past). Can you really call it cowardly for people  who have faced and are facing such terrible misery to  simply want an ending. A good or bad ending, but an ending none the less. Who are you or I to judge?


(AC) Yes, hiding behind children (who have hope for a better life) to save your own is cowardly, and I don't think it is ever justifiable. I don't think that Hamas fighters are essentially fed up with life and simply want a way out. I believe they fight BECAUSE they have hope, not because they have none. As a result, they should be trying to achieve their ends in an optimal way, and baiting Israeli aggression simply isn't optimal.

The fact is that Israel isn't going anywhere, and most of Israelis were born in Israel, and thus have an equal claim to the land as do the Palestinians (it is both of their homelands). The Israelis feel threatened by Palestinians, and will logically use their military superiority to try to neutralize this threat at any cost. The conflict, from the Israeli perspective, is existential. I believe they misunderstand the situation, thinking that they can use hard power (military intervention, oppression) to achieve their ends, but this is not the case in reality (unless they exterminated every Palestinian). The Israeli government should behave in a benevolent way, and achieve peace using soft power.

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
ArmyCore
post Aug 14 2014, 10:01 PM
Post #33


Field-Marshal
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 8,039
AOE3 Replays: 0
Submissions: None
Joined: 4-August 08

Member No.: 68,380






j4, it's the intention behind a cause upon which a man is judged, not necessarily the effect. Read Plato's "Laws".

I don't really understand how you can sit there and pretend you're so intelligent and well-educated when you can't understand this universal distinction. You honestly have autism.

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Slow_Runner
post Aug 15 2014, 01:45 PM
Post #34


The Forum Fact Faerie signal called?
Group Icon

Group: Administration
Posts: 4,520
AOE3 Replays: 0
Submissions: None
Joined: 23-May 05

From: Finland
Member No.: 54,881






Of course intent is a major part of any action. That's why there are different penalties for manslaughter and murder.

I can't believe you guys had so much trouble explaining this concept and it's even more baffling that J4 is so vehemently opposed to it.

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
DoD_J4Jc3
post Aug 15 2014, 02:14 PM
Post #35


The Rag Master
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 14,857
AOE3 Replays: 0
Submissions: None
Joined: 1-May 06

From: Belgium
Member No.: 37,529

Gamertag: [DoD]J4Jc3





QUOTE(Slow_Runner @ Aug 15 2014, 07:45 PM)
Of course intent is a major part of any action. That's why there are different penalties for manslaughter and murder.

I can't believe you guys had so much trouble explaining this concept and it's even more baffling that J4 is so vehemently opposed to it.
*



Both are criminal offenses with a clear sentence (which differs). Again comparing it with war where there is no criminal offense at all when it comes to collateral damage and again proving my point as there should be a sentence just like in the manslaughter murder difference. I should have been the one using these examples, not you.

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Slow_Runner
post Aug 15 2014, 03:15 PM
Post #36


The Forum Fact Faerie signal called?
Group Icon

Group: Administration
Posts: 4,520
AOE3 Replays: 0
Submissions: None
Joined: 23-May 05

From: Finland
Member No.: 54,881






You said that intent doesn't matter. Why, then, is there a different sentence for murder and (involuntary) manslaughter if intent is irrelevant? Neither is acceptable, but one is worse than the other.

Giving an order to bomb a school is a war crime and will get you court marshaled and sentenced.

Targeting a rocket launch site with a bomb and having the bomb stray off target and destroy a school is not a war crime and most likely will not have you court marshaled and if court marshaled, probably not sentenced.

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
DoD_J4Jc3
post Aug 15 2014, 07:09 PM
Post #37


The Rag Master
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 14,857
AOE3 Replays: 0
Submissions: None
Joined: 1-May 06

From: Belgium
Member No.: 37,529

Gamertag: [DoD]J4Jc3





QUOTE
You said that intent doesn't matter. Why, then, is there a different sentence for murder and (involuntary) manslaughter if intent is irrelevant? Neither is acceptable, but one is worse than the other.


Did I? I don't remember saying intent doesn't matter anywhere. Maybe you should quote me. Obviously you can't quote me, because you assumed that yourself (and Magic and Armycore, which was amusing to read obviously), I never said that. I highlighted the fallacy in your logic where you take things for granted and go from there instead of doubting the rules first. Taking the difference between 'collateral damage' and 'genocide' for granted is logically retarded and is only accepted by people severely influenced by propaganda.

There are three examples posted here, two by Magic, one by you which support my point. There is 0 posted by anyone which supports your point. So, I'll summarize your fallacy and leave it at that. Maybe you learn something.

You are making the basic mistake of taking the commonly accepted stigma of the so called difference between collateral damage and genocide for granted and then start reasoning from here. This is a logical failure as the difference written in the rules is inherently wrong in the first place. Then you try going on to the micro level of the difference between murder/manslaughter/all other crap Magic posted, but afterwards you realize that all of this has a sentence, where collateral damage goes unpunished for no reason whatsoever. Here also you make the basic logical mistake of taking micro-level concepts such as murder which are relatively easily identified to the macro level of war between nations, where both the cause as the intent are completely ambiguous. This makes the micro-level and macro-level concepts uncomparable and makes your examples not only completely misused as they do not support your arguments but mine, but also entirely meaningless. Now you can go argue between yourself whose fault is it, Israeli or Palestinian based on misshaped rules made for convenience to justify own actions and condemn all others instead of human rights.

This post has been edited by DoD_J4Jc3: Aug 15 2014, 07:15 PM

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Slow_Runner
post Aug 15 2014, 11:23 PM
Post #38


The Forum Fact Faerie signal called?
Group Icon

Group: Administration
Posts: 4,520
AOE3 Replays: 0
Submissions: None
Joined: 23-May 05

From: Finland
Member No.: 54,881






QUOTE
Maybe you should quote me. Obviously you can't quote me...
Oh?

QUOTE(DoD_J4Jc3 @ Aug 14 2014, 01:45 AM)
QUOTE
it basically means this, is Israel bombing a Hamas weapon site which has civilians nearby that are being hurt through the aftermath of the explosion or is it attacking children playing at a beach or maybe dropping white phosphorus on residential areas, do you see a difference?


No. I don't.
*



QUOTE(DoD_J4Jc3 @ Aug 14 2014, 06:19 PM)
QUOTE
j4, there is very clearly a difference between collateral damage and the intended targeting of civilians

There isn't.
*


How are the above quotes supposed to be interpreted then? If intent does matter then you are wrong in both quotes above, saying flat out that there is no difference between intentional and unintentional killing of civilians. The end result is same in both, civilians die, but that does not mean that there isn't a difference.

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
DoD_KiLLerBoy
post Aug 16 2014, 06:19 AM
Post #39


Field-Marshal
Group Icon

Group: AoT Gosu
Posts: 5,098
AOE3 Replays: 0
Submissions: None
Joined: 23-March 06

Member No.: 35,037






Discussion here is useless since you all suck at arguing. Disrespectful and not willing to listen to the other party.

With that being said it's very funny to see how much Western media influences naive people to believe certain things, especially Americans :lol:

I suggest you both go to Israel/Gaza to find out the real true, until then, be okay with Islamic jihadists bombing you whenever they wish without warning and be mad when Israel has enough of it. I bet Canada and America would be okay with that :lol:


User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
IamMagic
post Aug 16 2014, 09:43 AM
Post #40


Lieutenant-General
Group Icon

Group: AoT Expert
Posts: 3,951
AOE3 Replays: 5
Submissions: None
Joined: 6-December 03

Member No.: 1,689






QUOTE(KiLLerBoy @ Aug 16 2014, 11:19 AM)
Discussion here is useless since you all suck at arguing. Disrespectful and not willing to listen to the other party.
*


sorry but i'm gonna have to 'lol' at this

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
ArmyCore
post Aug 16 2014, 12:38 PM
Post #41


Field-Marshal
Group Icon

Group: Members
Posts: 8,039
AOE3 Replays: 0
Submissions: None
Joined: 4-August 08

Member No.: 68,380






QUOTE(XpT_Magic @ Aug 16 2014, 08:43 AM)
QUOTE(KiLLerBoy @ Aug 16 2014, 11:19 AM)
Discussion here is useless since you all suck at arguing. Disrespectful and not willing to listen to the other party.
*


sorry but i'm gonna have to 'lol' at this
*



lol no poopie



User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

3 Pages < 1 2 3
Reply to this topicTopic Options
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:
 

Task


Time is now: 22nd September 2017 - 03:25 PM
About Us  ·   Advertising  ·   Contact Us  ·   Terms of Use  ·   Privacy Policy